Episode #38 - The Coach's Playbook with Ben Josephson

In this long awaited episode we talk about why you don't learn anything from losing, what men can learn from women's volleyball and vice versa. How to create a culture where innovation happens daily. Why you should never compare your players to each other while watching someone else perform a skill might lead to faster learning than watching yourself.

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Transcript

0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Pit to Pro Podcast. In today's episode, we're joined by Ben Josephson. Ben is the associate head coach with the University of Texas Women's Volleyball Team. Before that, he was the head coach of the Canadian Men's National Volleyball Team, a five-time national champion with the Trinity Western Spartans, and a three-time national coach of the Year. In this discussion, we talk about why you don't learn anything from losing, what men can learn from women's volleyball and vice versa. How to create a culture where innovation happens daily. Why you should never compare your players to each other while watching someone else perform. A skill might lead to faster learning than watching yourself. And a long list of useful mantras, metaphors, and mindsets. Remember that all proceeds from merch sales in the month of June are going to the sitting women's national volleyball team. So head over to pit to pro.com. Grab yourself some merch and help out Canadian para athletes.

Mathias 0:46

Before we get started, I'd like to introduce our sponsor for today's episode.

Jesse 0:50

If you use code ARMSWING50 at checkout, you'll instantly get 50 percent off your first month of the Arm Swing Academy.

Mathias 0:56

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Jesse 1:14

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1:30

But now ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Ben Josephson. Hello and welcome to the Pit the Pro podcast. Jesse, Matthias, and Aaron Elson. This podcast is meant to guide young athletes on their journey to high performance. Join us as we share our first hand experiences in an effort to help you reach your own valuable goals.

Mathias 1:51

Here we go. Welcome back everyone to the Pit to Pro podcast. Today's episode number 38. I've got a very special guest today. Ben Josephson is on the line with us. Welcome to the show, Ben.

Ben 2:05

Thanks boys. Good to see you guys. Yeah, it's awesome.

Jesse 2:09

Well, first and foremost, happy birthday to Mattias. It's his birthday, twenty four, twenty three, twenty fourth birthday. Happy birthday to Mattias. And uh, Ben, we're super, super pumped to have you on ever since we started this about a year and a half ago. You've been the number one guest we've wanted to get on the podcast, so this is exciting for all of us. Um, this is super

Ben 2:34

intimidating. That's all I know about the least great guests and we know way too much about each other. So

Jesse 2:40

yeah, I think that's, that's what'll make it so good. Um, but I want to ask, I think this question is gonna really gonna give our listeners, uh, a look into how creative and curious you are as a coach. And I remember, it must have been my second or third year we were talking and you were speculating about writing a book about all the, the lessons your kids have taught you about volleyball. Yeah. And I was wondering if you could share some of those lessons like the, the boots in the mud one or some other ones, and if you're still planning on writing that book.

Ben 3:16

I don't know if I'm still writing the book, but I'm still getting lessons from my kids. That's for sure. Um, man, I've drawn a blank. There's one that Gracie just pulled up the other day that we used and it was awesome. But, um, the, the two ones, I, I, I'll reference my favorite one after the boots in the mud. But basically the premise is these kids are awesome. Like, they just, they tell you stuff, they ask you things and you're like, man, they like, where'd that come from? And they're always so curious and parenting is so complicated, but honestly it's very similar to coaching. And you guys are crazy and curious and say the darnest things and then, you know, you kind of morph through a season with your athletes too. So it's all kind of the same. But, uh, um, so the, the, we used this analogy where Cooper basically made a mud hole in the backyard, um, and stepped into it. His boots got stuck and, and he, he came out of the, to me in the, in the kitchen and like, why are you just all muddy? And he walks me out to the yard and his boots are just stuck in the mud. And it was just struck with this like, hey, that's the analogy for what we want our blockers, um, to be like, was where they take off. We want them to land roughly back exactly where they took off, chop, stopping, drifting and rotating. And so what, you know, and there's a bit of method to the madness and that, you know, history is best for remembered it through stories the brain is gonna remember a story or a joke or a phrase more than it's gonna remember the details of, Hey, when you step with your right foot square this way, like, as opposed to when I tell this story about Cooper and his boots in the mud, then you go, ha. Like you all remember boots in the mud. I'm sure it's still to this day, and kind of what that means for blocking, well, whether you believe it or not is a different story, but it's at least a memorable thing. So these stories and analogies, that, that was one. And you know what, and my favorite one, and I don't know if I've told this story enough, but Cooper was just playing, starting to play hockey. And, uh, we went to, um, this hot, this his first game and he was terrible, like by far the worst player in the game. And so I, he couldn't do anything. And, uh, so we're driving home in the truck and he's kind of got some tears in his eyes and you know, he is talking, dad, I was just so bad, like, I can't play with these guys. Yeah, I know. Like, what do he say? He's like, I can't lie to you. You, you're definitely not good. Um, and then he's kind of sniffles and pulls himself together. Like, you know what though, I can be the hardest working player on the team though. Dad, you know what? I can be the best teammate on the team. And you know what? I'm gonna be the most improved player on the team and those things I can do, I'm still not gonna be good, but I can do that. And it's like, holy cow, this little 8-year-old just kinda took all of this emotion and disappointment and just kind of reframed it in a way that could be really productive for him. It's like, yeah, I mean, that's the good stuff. And we're all gonna hit those levels. And anyway, so like, just these amazing lessons from kids and, and again, I have a million from you guys and other people, but, uh, it's kind of different what it hits from your kids So th those are just a couple of the stories and, and there's a more of a list But, um, I just think that's kind of how people remember stuff. A

Jesse 6:27

hundred percent. I remember a lot of'em, like the water balloon one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was countless of them. Um, well, we can't give away

Ben 6:35

my whole content for the book. I mean, you gotta gotta wait for the book. Yeah, right.

Jesse 6:38

For sure. For sure. That's true. We'll pause there. Um, I'm curious about, I would say it's, it's evident that you are always thinking about volleyball or helping your, your athletes improve or helping or working on improving yourself. Is that exhausting? And how do you turn that off when you go home? Like you're playing with your kids outside in the mud, but you're thinking about blocking.

Ben 7:09

Yeah. You know what, um. I don't know that it's ever off, but I also don't know that it's ever on. Um, so it's not exhausting'cause I'm never, and I'm not just sitting there on the couch thinking about volleyball. Instead of playing Catan with the boys, I'll be playing Catan with the boys and something will like, I don't know, spark. And like, oh. And then what I have learned though is, um, if it's really important and, and it's a volleyball thought and it's not appropriate for what I'm doing right now. Like, again, let's play, we playing Catan or, well, really into Catan right now. So I'm bringing, so if we're playing Gatan and I have a thought about, uh, a blocking scheme, boom, write it down or enter it and If it's a good thought and I don't need to build on it, just capture it. And actually, Ryan Hofer had some of the best parenting advice I ever got. Um, he was talking about, I mean, Cooper was super young and he was just saying, our job sucks for family, so you we're just gone a lot and a lot of demands on our time. And one of the things he said was, um, your kids aren't gonna judge you for being gone for work. They're gonna judge you for the way you are at home. And I just thought that was such an awesome reminder. Like, Hey, if I, I was just gone for four days recruiting and doing these things, and I'm, my kids are fired up to see me, but if I'm not present with them, then they're gonna think that they're not important. Like they know I have to go to work in the morning, that's fine. But when I'm home, like, am I playing catan or jumping in the lake or playing some pepper in the backyard? Like, so I think learning how to capture your volleyball thoughts, which like you said, like they're always kind of there, but then be really present with your other priorities. I think that's a survival tactic especially those of us who are pretty invested in what we do.

Oog 8:52

Yeah. I think that's applicable to like even university athletes like coming home and, sure. And not even like just letting it go after practice. Like there's days where I come home and I stew for two, three hours, don't do any homework, don't do the dishes, get nothing done. Just because I'm thinking about how shitty practice was or how bad. Like, it just, I don't know. I think that's, yeah, it's just a great lesson for even just life like.

Ben 9:19

That, that was another huge piece of advice I got. Somewhere along the way, I think it was from my dad maybe, is like I would just, after the games as an athlete especially, just bother me for hours. I couldn't sleep. I was, and he's, I don't remember if who, maybe it was Ron, I don't remember, but some leader, important person in my life basically said, you got an hour, man. If, if you can't sort your out, your emotions out in an hour, win or lose, like you gotta get that done. Like celebrate with the boys, be pissed, go smash something, whatever you gotta do. But after that hour, you gotta move on.'cause whatever, you gotta put those emotions away and start moving forward with the lessons are and getting prepped for whatever's next. But I definitely think there's something to that.

Jesse 10:02

So What about that last, excuse me, I'm kind of sick. What about that last game at Trinity at U of M, national final? We lost which one? I don't remember that one. Good answer. That was obviously heartbreaking for everyone involved. Um, and I think times five, times six times a hundred for you being the end of a chapter. What kind of emotions are running through your head at that time and how long did it take you to kind of set that aside and be like, okay. I did have a great career at Trinity. I had a huge impact. I left it way better than I found it.'cause I can't imagine that was an hour.

Ben 10:54

Yeah, you definitely are gonna break me on this one. Um, I honestly, uh, my overriding emotion was actually for you two probably felt worse about it because you guys didn't play the way you wanted to. And uh, I know how long that was gonna burn you up and, uh, yeah. And that, that always was hurts, is watching. Yeah. Your players just underperform in the biggest moment. And then on the flip side, I'm sitting in my hotel in Lexington watching you guys win the next year and equal excitement I couldn't be happier for you guys to, to win that one. So, yeah. Oh, I knew this was gonna happen to this podcast. You buggers, but, uh, I, I think that was probably the, the biggest one I thought of. Um, and for right or for wrong, I never actually think about my interaction with the game. Or the team. I've never thought about those things before or since. that's just not how I'll ever think. I, I guess, um,

Mathias 12:14

then your audience kind of cutting out there. I don't know if it's for, I think it's raining.

Ben 12:20

I think it's raining. Doesn't rain here much. Um, maybe if I pop my earphones off. Should I try that?

Mathias 12:30

Yeah, that might be better. Sorry. That was, that was a bad time to stop. But we could actually let

Ben 12:37

pose myself here because that was crazy. the, the difference of that one though too, Jess, is um, every time we had lost the national final, which sucks that we have to say every time,'cause it was too many. We had won the next two years in a row. And I think there was something really, and I'm very proud of that for our teams because in 10 20 10 they lose co-chair. That was all on me. And then they won 11, 12, Then we lose again in 15, and that's on Ryan Slater and then they win 16, 17. And Slater is unreal in those, like, I mean, uh, you know, it's a team game, but like, hey, you know, oh, someone's gotta be the, the bummer, you know? And then we lose 2018 and honestly that's on Tuus. But, um, the, and Carrie fricking McDonald. But anyways, but then all of a sudden, then we pull off 19, we would've on 20, I'm convinced. Um, so then we had to wait till after COVID. And so then when we lost in 22, I was like, oh, that's, that's what sucked is. I would've loved to have watched what you guys ended up doing and end up winning the next two. Like just the people we had the character on the roster, the pride and, and the work ethic that you guys have, you know, team after team. I think that's why that happened. You know, I was super proud of those roots.'cause you know, John, we hanging the silver medal on the, on the net every day to remind everyone that they lost, you know, and we had no idea he was doing it for the longest time. We just show up to the gym and just silver medal there. What the hell? Who's doing that? And sure enough it was Jean V. But anyways, like that's that cool stuff. Watching people respond, watching athletes respond to failure or disappointment. And like I said, I mean watching you guys respond that next season from afar was just so fun. And then the way you guys play down the stretch too, you would say, yeah, that's what really great humans need. And uh, I think that's not having the, a chance to be a part of that, that's probably sort of the worst part of that loss is not getting to like, oh, now we get to see the good stuff. Now we get to find out who these people are, who we are. And I mean, that's the best part of coaching is kind of when you get these, I don't know, memorable life moments of, to figure out if you're a real, real man or not real athlete or not.

Jesse 15:08

Yeah. That's cool. That kind of reminds me, actually, one of my favorite quotes from you is the, the good after good idea. And I remember one day you said, you don't have to be great, you just can't be bad. Yep. And I think about that often, quite often, especially in pro, you don't have to be great. You don't have to get MVP, you just can't be bad. Yeah. And I think that's so relevant to high performance,

Ben 15:32

especially in games like volleyball. I mean, I guess sports consistency is what greatness is. I mean, that's why the goats or the goats,'cause they've been great over time, but you're right. I mean, how do you be good apple? Good. And I think that's pretty good life's lesson too. I mean, man, we, if you got five days in the week, you can't expect all five to be good or like awesome. But if everyone's good, that's a pretty good week or a pretty good month, or, I mean mm-hmm. I mean, that's not my quote, but that's, that's coaching. Like, no, nothing I've ever said is original. It's just synthesize other people's wisdom into something. But yeah, I, I don't know who that one is. That sounds like a Tom Black quote to me.

Jesse 16:18

Well, it's yours in my mind.

Mathias 16:21

that's so, uh, it's almost like a sad reality that you kind of have to get kicked in the butt at some point, I think, in your career, um, so that you can respond, you can see your blind spots. That was a huge one for me in that moment. I was not on autopilot, but things were just going well for me in my career that whole time. And then that one just like, just absolutely crumbled. And then that kind of revealed some patterns in the past. I was like, oh, okay. Like, it just didn't, didn't hurt enough for me to make big, any big changes. And then, yeah, that was probably, I'm probably the most grateful for that game out of any game in my career. It's also like the worst. It's, yeah, it's equal and opposing best and worst game of my career. I think in terms of what it did for me,

Ben 17:17

I think there's two parts to that tilt is we talk about scar tissue being the toughest, but it, it only scars up after you got caught. the other one too, is If you're not getting hurt emotionally after disappointment, you're not investing enough or you're not doing something hard, enough like if you can break up with your girlfriend and it doesn't break your soul, you didn't really love her. Likewise, if we didn't feel that heartbroken after that game then I don't know that we even belonged in it We probably didn't invest enough to, to really earn it. And the fact that, you know, after those games, we do feel that broken and yeah, we gave every, I mean we just didn't play good. That's fine, that's sports but man, there is nothing, there's no questions that you guys didn't give enough, but your point now we gotta figure out how to get better.'cause it still wasn't good enough. But there was no lack of investment or care like you guys tried. I mean, that team tried their best, just didn't work. So then, and you can't fail safe everything just like parents would like, I can't protect my kids from everything, but when it does fail, like then let's leverage that. That's the greatest chance for learning and response. And I mean, there's a bunch of brain chemistry of that. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Like there's so much good stuff after failure. And then you add an emotional component to add, to drive and focus and lets you have that recalibration that, that, that's amazing. Have you guys heard that, that story, Jocko Willink the good. Story. Yeah. I mean, that just summarizes that mindset so well now that's pretty cold that you could just hear that stuff and say, good, like I, I don't know how, but that's why he's a Marine and we're a volleyball people But, um, but that is absolutely the mindset. Like, hey, you lose the national final, with the best roster Trinity's ever seen. Good. Watch what happens to these boys after this. You know, like, you know, you, you get upset on the road and your season ends good. That's never gonna happen to that, way again, like I think if he, great performers have good mindset, and I mean, that, that's such a powerful thing. I was reminded of that the other day and I don't think I've applied that in my life very well, to be honest. Um, but I want to

Mathias 19:43

Yeah, no, that's such a good one. I, I've been thinking about it over the last couple years. I think it's so interesting that, um, essentially what we're playing for is just an emotion and memories, you know, because the medal itself doesn't hold a ton of value. Like it's not worth a bunch of money, or it doesn't, doesn't change your life. But yeah, the reason that we do all this stuff is for like a feeling at the end of the season. Sense of accomplishment with, with the group. And when you get into a final or something, it's like you're, you're at the blackjack table and or the poker table and you just went all in with your emotions. And then, and then, yeah, you either come out like on top of the world or, or on the bottom. I think it's, it's so interesting emotional poker,

Ben 20:40

but man, isn't that the best? Like Yeah, it's just the best.'cause it, it's the same. It will never feel as good if you didn't risk that much. I mean, you can't win a million if you risk losing 500. Mm-hmm. Like, it is just, it's the best. And it also, but it bad as it hurt. Oh, does that hurt? Right. And um, I think the thought that popped in when you were talking was, um, security and significance I think are two really, really important pursuits of human, the human condition. Um, and I think sport is one of the areas that supplies that. But I also think so like, security like that, I think that has to do with your community and your relationships and like where you find your identity. You know, like this is you, you love going to the room to be with the boys. You love having routine to your day. You love having feedback that you're accomplishing something. But then I think we all search for significance in our relationships and our pursuits. So I think all of those things, like that's, those are some of the things that sport provides, you know? And, but also, like, that's what I look for in my home life. Um, I wanna make sure I'm secure in my relationships with my wife and my kids, but I also wanna make sure that we're making significance with our family and, you know, whether it be externally or whether our kids are having these moments and growing and being prepared for, I just think security and significance are two kind of foundational principles to coaching and leadership. And I think that's, to your point, is like you went all in trying to do something significant, but if it wasn't that significant, you wouldn't have risked that much. I mean, I don't know.

Mathias 22:24

Yep, absolutely. You don't put

Ben 22:26

500 grand to win 600 grand.

Mathias 22:29

Right?

Ben 22:29

Like, just another a hundred. Like, that's just foolish. But when you, when the stakes are high, you gotta put a lot into it and

Mathias 22:35

mm-hmm. And I think that was the big change for me after that game bent, is I realized, or I, I, I learned how to love that feeling of being all in, especially in the big moments where yeah, really enjoying the, the pressure and the process and uh, taking in the feelings. Not just, not just after the game, but during. Yeah. And then I think that, uh, helped me. You know, increase my odds of coming out on top. But it was just like I started to love, like not knowing if I was gonna win or not. Whereas before, I'd be like, oh, gotta get this over with man. Like,

Oog 23:18

yeah, yeah.

Mathias 23:19

Like, if we could just like win, that'd be awesome. But now I'm like, I'm, I'd rather just play.

Ben 23:26

I've, I've heard you talk about previous pods ts I think that's just such a mature way to look at competition. I, I just hope, like, I hope a lot of athletes listen to that. I think it's so, and Jesse, you're gonna go through this, this summer with your wedding, but what advice I got for my wedding is they're like, make sure you pay attention to what's going on. Because everyone talks about it's just being a blur and next thing you know, it's over and the day. And I'm like, God, I don't remember. Well, no matter how bad you try, that's kind of what it is. But I just think that that's the, the reference point too for you ts is man, like if you don't really take in the moment this huge, significant thing, you will try so hard just went by. And then even if you bring it down to a microcosm, just a game, like you trained your ass off for a long time to be good at volleyball and now you have a chance to perform. And if you're not really in the moment, then it's just kind of going by. Even the hard stuff. I just think that ability to be present is just such a unique trait for performers and oh, honestly, all of us, um, seems to be a theme. We're talking about that a lot, about being present. That seems to be a.

Mathias 24:38

I heard an interesting thought the other day that, um, about wasted time. Mm. Like people are always worried about wasting time and the idea was that, um, the only wasted time is time not spent in the present. So even if you're doing, yeah, something like, I dunno, maybe you're, maybe you're watching a movie instead of working or whatever. It's like, yeah, I'm, I'm wasting time or whatever. But if you're like, fully there and like in the moment watching that movie That's it's not wasted time at all. But if you're, if you mind is elsewhere either in the future or in the past and you're not where your feet are, then that is wasted time no matter what you're doing.

Ben 25:20

That's a good one. Yeah.

Mathias 25:22

I thought that was cool. That's wizard level. Nice.

Jesse 25:27

What'd you have there, Jess? Uh, well I think we're, we're starting to talk about the same thing over and over again, but I was just struck by, um, what you're saying. What was the, it was significance in what Security. Significance In security. And I remember our, our podcast with Brody, and I'm gonna mess up the his quote, but we were talking about that last national championship that we lost. And he said in a way we didn't lose because of how close that group was and how much we learned from that group and how incredibly formative that season was for all people involved. And I just thought that when I, when you were talking now, I was like, that is so significant. Like the, the medal, like you said, TAs has no value, but the, the group and the cohesion of that group was so significant that in a way we didn't lose in, in the grand scheme of things. Obviously we lost and it hurt, but, but the, the people side was so significant. I thought that was really cool that you also brought that up.

Ben 26:34

Yeah. I mean, if we're coaching and playing for a little piece of steel that's gonna go in a box and never be seen again, then everything we're doing is futile. Now, if it's not, and if, if we're not looking at a Stanley Cup or championship trophy, like if you're not pursuing something that massive, then it just doesn't pull the greatness out of a team and a person. So it has to be perceived that way. But at the end of the day, the only things you take with you are the memories and the relationships. So we can't, I mean, if we're talking about that stuff during the year, think about like, all right, we're in a tough practice that matters. Well, it's just like, it's all about us. And these relationships, you, you guys be like, we can't pass, man. Like just that stuff isn't gonna matter. But we all as humans. Especially as we mature, and, and that's kind of our job as coaches, is to make sure, like, if we can get you guys all on the same page, pursuing something with every little bit ounce of your being, then you guys are gonna pull stuff out of yourselves and each other that you'll never access in another way, and it's gonna spin into other parts of your life. Hopefully. That's like the, the grand theory of leadership and coaching. And that's something that, that's where, like when you guys, we talked about, I was crushed because I knew how hard that was gonna be for you guys to deal with. But that's honestly the whole bit of why we do this, because these things are gonna teach us the things that are gonna matter and they're gonna make these memories and bring these groups together. Like you can't, if you don't get close to stuff that matters and big things and, and then it's, I don't the, uh, people are gonna spin out of that motivator too, though. And like, we've lost, you know, every team, like, somebody's gonna come, like, volleyball just doesn't mean that much to me anymore. And then they spin out because their priorities and their time investment isn't in that same goal. And then they'll be like, oh, well, volleyball is taking up too much of my time. Like, no, it just doesn't matter enough to you anymore. You have other things that matter and that's awesome. You then go do that. You pursue that because it's just a volleyball game. It's just a trophy that that's not what this whole thing's about. So the moment that an athlete starts to figure out what they really care about, then they spin outta the game. Or they spin into a different sport or spin into farming, or, but I think that's the beauty of it, is then they take those tools and memories and relationships with them, and then they hopefully apply that to being the greatest farmer Saskatchewan's ever seen. And I think that's kind of the whole bit.

Oog 29:18

I agree 100%.

Ben 29:20

Welcome back.

Oog 29:22

Um, I honestly, I, I think me and ts were talking about this and we probably touched on another podcast, but the intangibles that you get from being coached well and from being in a team and leadership and whatnot, are way more, uh, important when it comes to an employment setting than I think anyone ever thinks about. Like, being able to work in a team is something that not a lot of people can do. Yeah. And by, by doing that at a high level, you are already kinda a step above other people or other candidates in whatever job you're looking for. And I think that's where it's hard for athletes to get jobs post-secondary or post after school because it's like, oh, you don't have any work experience. It's like, yeah, but I have 15 plus years of teamwork and hard work and sacrifice and like, I think that's kind of the, the neat part about it. Yeah. Um,

Mathias 30:26

I, I coached a club team this year. Nice. Is my Yeah, yeah, it is. It was pretty good. It is my first time head coaching a team and it's tough stuff, Ben. Like, I don't, I didn't have, I didn't have the appreciation for, uh, for coaches and especially great coaches, um, to the level I do now. Like, it's, it's crazy. I don't know, I dunno if it's my personality or whatever, but I'm curious when, when is it time to give a team a kick in the butt and, you know, ver versus let's say not that being supportive is the opposite side of that.'cause I think giving a kick in the butt is, is a, is a form of support. But when is, when is it time to do that?

Ben 31:24

I'll start with a quote from Scotty Bowman. And he said everybody needs a pat on the back. Some just lower than others. A Great. Coach knows when to do what and, uh. I think another great quote, Doug Rimer, is this idea of do no harm. So I think if you don't know, don't if you're sure. Yeah. Kick away.'cause that's part of it too. But under, I think that there's a couple parameters that I think a coach needs to understand is what is our job? Our job is to make our team perform better and perform and play better and be more collective. So if you are making a reactionary challenge to the team, a kick in the butt if it, you believe you're trying to accomplish any of those things, and this is the best tactic, absolutely. But if this is to make you feel better or feel like you're doing something or like, I don't know what else to do, like, I think that's pretty immature and irresponsible of the coach. I think if you, if it is a targeted, intentional, this is what we need and for these reasons, then yeah, and then you're gonna have to be accountable to your decision and you know, there's gonna be a fallout from it always. Like, but, uh, for me, those, those moments were when our culture was being challenged. And so whether that was treating each other well, um, playing well, preparation effort, like, and, and over time, not just a moment or a day or a guy like. When there was a significant cultural break. Um, and sometimes that was like a massive underperformance, like a choke. I, I sometimes viewed that, but it wasn't because of the match. I think the match was a symptom or, uh, of the cause, which was a lack of performance, laziness, complacency, selfishness. Like all, some things like creep into your team all the time. And so, and sometimes you don't see them coming and all of a sudden, oh no, we got smoke six straight sets by SaaS. It's like, this needs to change and this is why that happened. But I didn't see it common, you know? And I mean, I remember another weekend in Mount Royal, we just got our asses kicked and I mean, some of those guys on those teams can remember it. Like, we came back and I think guys snapped and we learned some hard lessons that we, um, but those, it wasn't because we lost. And I think that's the big one is don't kick your team because of a result. Make sure that it, and then make sure that if they don't, if the athletes don't know why they're getting kicked, you're just being a tyrant. Like sometimes athletes, like, I've had you guys come in before and like, Hey, I think we need our asses kicked here. Like, we're not working hard enough. And maybe, but like athletes know mm-hmm. When you guys are, when, and those good ones, you know, when you're kicking butt on your team, like, or you're getting your butt kicked, you know, it's like, yeah, we, we deserve this. We saw this coming.

Mathias 34:31

Yeah.

Ben 34:33

So does that answer your question? TII

Mathias 34:35

mean it does, it does. I, I think that's a great, a great framework for thinking about it. Also, I think the challenge for me was that I, maybe I was under invested or something, but I never felt like genuine anger or frustration towards my players. I think that's a, uh, personality thing as well. Like I was the same way playing. I never, ever, ever felt like my teammate needed me to, to get on them or yell at them. I just focused on doing, doing my job. That was my big thing. But I, yeah, I thought that was, that was interesting.

Ben 35:14

Well, the Elser boys emotional triangle, Jesse feels everything other people feel. Oog feels everything himself and you feel nothing. It was not that clean. But there's nothing wrong with that though, Tee but I think as a leader and a coach, like you need to understand what you are, and that's an incredible strength. But there's a backside to it though, is if you can't really empathize with what those players are feeling, and you can't emotionally engage in some of those things, then you have to find ways or players or staff. Support that can, because that's an incredible tool to stay emotionally right there so that you could be that perceptive and above the emotion to, to see what's going on. That's awesome. Yeah, that's, you also know that you gotta have your blind spots covered as a coach and a team. And that's why the cool part of a volleyball team is you have everything like you, you know, you got the warden who's just dialed and like robotic and then you got Brodie he's all over the place and you know, I'm freaking out. And then Jackie and Schnitzy are just talking about high they jump. Dude, you are high man. It's like, but I think, you know, like, and then you just, Jesse's like just making sure everyone's loving each other and Colton's running around being smart. But I think that's the cool part of teams. But also that's the cool part as a coach, like you gotta understand who you are and who you're not, and then figure out how to support that. And then also evolve too. So you have to be better when you know, like you're responsible, we talk about this all the time, but when you get exposed in something, you are now responsible to make the upgrade once you know what it is.

Oog 36:59

Hmm.

Ben 36:59

So your only job is to be curious and be interested in getting better. Um, and then once you know, then you gotta get your butt in gear and try to get better at that. Like, you don't know what international passing is until you've seen an international server and you're like, oh damn, this is gonna be hard. So now you gotta get to work. Get better at that. You can't spike against a collegiate spiker if you're a high school kid, you don't know what that looks like. You know, we talked to these, these kids at camp this weekend, but you have to learn to play the block. You have to learn to play the block. There's no court. There's no court. And they're like, yeah, watch this. And then they pump. Yeah. But next year in college they, there's no court, so they do have to learn how to play the block. So sometime the context is gonna teach the lesson. So I think for you, Tia is just recognizing, this was what I learned, so now you gotta get to work and figure it out.

Mathias 37:50

Yeah, absolutely. Real quick, Ben, can you go over the timeline of like, when a lesson is learned? I think that was a interesting one. Like the lesson is not learned when you fail, but it's revealed, it's learned when you Yeah. So I,

Ben 38:07

I have no idea if there's any science to this, but the way I kind of preach it is, um, failure reveals the lesson. Success means the lesson's been learned. So, I mean, think about your two championships. The lesson is you guys weren't good enough to play in that moment for a lot of reasons. So that's a macro lesson, like underperforming in the moment. Um, but then, so that's revealed a lot of things, a lot of lessons were revealed to us. It's like, man, we gotta get better at this. We have to have better routines. We have to be more present, we have to be more engaged. We have to be less selfish. Uh, who knows? We gotta spike better with our thumb up, or I don't like, it could be big or small. I think the belief is once when you're successful is when you're learning stuff as the next year when you guys won. And, and a lot of those things were the reason. It's like that's where like these lessons get rooted. And for me as a coach, that's why it was really important to be good as I really believe that success is where these lessons root. So think about where you guys are at in your lives and some of these things that you believe if we didn't win or whatever winning you define, like if we didn't find success through some of these things, then that's, that lesson just doesn't root the same'cause it didn't produce the results you're looking for. It's just like a really cool theory. Like, oh, I love that, but it didn't work. So it's like having a great hypothesis in the science world, but that studies don't prove it's right. Like it's not a truth, it's not a lesson. And I just, I think that's why it was really important that when we leaned into a lesson that we acknowledged when it was successful, because then I just think it rooted deep on the flip side. You also gotta know when to bail out and that lesson is not real. Like that hypothesis was wrong.

Mathias 39:57

Yeah. I always absolutely loved that, that thought process because so many people like, you'll lose a match and like, oh, but we learned a lot. It's like, no you haven't. No, you just got showed where, where you, you just got exposed in your weaknesses. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And now you need to start learning. The cool part is

Ben 40:16

now, you know, a lot of things you gotta learn.

Mathias 40:18

Yeah, yeah. So I I I really love that.'cause you know, like the classic quote, it's like the classic quote. It's like you either win or you learn. Yeah. But it's like you either lose or you win and learn. Yeah. Like winning is just so much better. Um, or you lose and you Sure, yeah. Things are revealed anyways. I, I always, I always really, I use that a lot. Like when, when something doesn't go right, it's like, okay, well now there's a lot of things that I know I need to do. Let's go learn them. And it doesn't just happen right away. There's

Ben 40:49

the post post experience, like, I don't know what they call it in the military, something like a post action eval or something. Like, they have, they have acronyms for everything in the military, but basically that's what we're doing in match review. So, you know that there it is, like we lose that game, but pretty, there's a lot of things we gotta learn now. And we, the hope is as a coach and a leader and a performer, the hope is, and, and you guys know this from pro, is like, I've gotta tick off these lessons fast because if I don't, I can't keep up with the game and I'm not gonna get a contract. I'm gonna get caught. I'm gonna, you know, and as a coach, like I gotta stay ahead of as many lessons as I can for our team so that they don't cost us matches or cost us opportunities. So that's what we're doing to the best of our ability, but we also have to understand like, there's so many things we will never see coming. And that's where, so when it does. What a gift. What, and there's jocko's good. Like you lose something good. Now we know the stuff we didn't know. So can we try our best to know what we have to do as people to keep moving forward and constantly be looking for what we don't know. But we're also limited in our capacity and our knowledge and our ability. And sometimes we need life events to shed light on stuff that we're just not good enough to come up with on our own or with our staff or our team. Um, that's why you have great people around you to try to get the best out of it. And that's why I think Trinity teams were pretty awesome for a long time. Um, still are, but um, when I was there, like that was always a thought. It's like, what are we not seeing? Like, what are we not doing? Like why do we not win the championship this year? And it's gonna be because we missed too many serves. Well, sure enough, we missed too many serves or whatever.

Jesse 42:39

I, I thought I always, one of the things I always admired about you, Ben, was the, the expectations and the ways to get there were very, very clear. And we would start the season writing out the roadmap on the whiteboard with specific numbers We need to serve in a, this percentage, we need to decide out at this percentage. And then going back to the kick in the butt thing, it's already clear what the goal is or was. It's already clear where we're lacking. So you have the whole team, staff, players, everyone knows we did not reach the expectation. It's not like you come in one day and say, oh, we didn't serve good enough. You just came up with this number outta your out of thin air. You know, like it was day one, September 1st. Everyone knows what the expectation is. Yeah, thanks. That's a good point. Dunno if

Mathias 43:37

that adds the conversation, but No, no, no. That was a good point. Jess, I, Ben, when you were speaking there, I was thinking how important it is to take practice seriously and care each day because then it hurts when you don't achieve your daily goal. And then you can iterate faster on those failures and those lessons that are revealed. If you have a bad practice or you don't meet expectations on a certain day, but you don't care about practice, you only care about the way the games or the championships, then that you won't have enough failures in your season to iterate and get better.

Ben 44:23

So two kind of macro philosophies I think popped up. One just a core philosophy for me is like freedom within the framework. And I think those kind of key performance indicators, or we called it the staircase, like whatever you wanna call it, I think that provided the framework for the season or for the team, it's like, these are the things that we're gonna play within. And then what happens inside of that, that's the cool part of a season and a team is it's gonna be its own thing. You know, think like a painting, like you have a frame and inside of it is what's gonna happen. And we can't control that, nor should we, because that's the coolest evolution of a, of a group of humans and experiences and lessons. But there has to be some kind of framework like this will lead. And over time we learned kind of what we believed or I believed. And so that kind of led. And then TS um, I think the, this concept of like a, a seesaw or a, I don't know, is that, yeah, like a seesaw. What's, what's another name for a seesaw Teeter-totter. There it is. Teeter-totter. Um, I think that concept, and we've talked about that a lot over the, over the years, but I think this idea of balance is something that humans. Need to strive for and for sure teams and athletes. So if you want a result you have to put in. And if you're putting in more than you're getting out, then people break. Like I'm giving everything and all we do is lose that. People quit Or people put nothing in like if, but as soon as like your return on investment is kind of appropriate, then I think you see great engagement. So another story I love to tell is, you know those thick rubber bands, like I'm sure you guys did this when you run around the house, like you snap each other with those rubber bands and you pull'em back. You know, we always talk about the elastic response and essentially this is what we're dealing with is like the further you pull it back, the more it's gonna hurt. If you pull it back too far, it will snap and hurt you. So too much tension isn't good. Not enough tension and you don't get the the power. And I think there's that idea. All of these are analogies about balance and I think figuring out how do you have the appropriate amount of stress and tension on your team or your athlete or yourself to propel motivation, execution, performance, again, too much stress and you break not enough stress and you don't get pushed. So I think that's your job as a coach, but also a leader, but also in your own life. Like if you're just comfortable not doing anything well and you have dreams, well that, that's completely outta balance. I. If you have no dreams and don't put anything in, you're a perfect balance, good for you, like you're probably in person, that's great, but it's all balanced. And that's everything in training load that has to do with your, your goals and your training. That has to do with your, you know, everything. So I think these idea of freedom within the framework and balance are two kind of really core principles to when you're dealing with a team or a group of humans.

Oog 47:25

Mm-hmm. I was actually talking about our mom about that yesterday, just like kind of random that we brought it up today. But I was talking about like working and what I put in to a job where I'm not the boss, let's say. I am never gonna get out as much as I put in, whether that's a feeling, a monetary amount, whatever. But if I am my in control of my own destiny, I know that I will put in a hell of a lot more and I will get a hell of a lot more. So I think it's, that's the same thing with a coach. If, if a coach is, is sitting there like a boss and only giving you as much as they think you're worth or they think you can do, versus the best coaches are the ones that same thing allow you to kind of play within the framework. They let you, and that's the same with the best bosses. The best bosses let you run and do your thing and they know that you're gonna make money for them. And I think that's, yeah, it's, it's sweet. And it's kind of funny that I was just BSing with my mom about that, but

Ben 48:35

think about the national final. Like, you guys are gonna win or lose that thing, not me. Yeah. So if you guys don't care about it, then we're gonna lose like it is, I can't care about, it's not gonna help you. My job is just to make sure I give you the information and the training and the mental balance and whatever tools I can give you. But like at the end of the day, you guys are gonna wanna lose that thing.

Oog 48:53

Mm-hmm.

Ben 48:54

So teams are championships, not coaches. Like, I always get frustrated when people are like, you've won this. I'm like, Nope, those teams won that. Like, those teams won those championships and nor did I lose those. I lost 2010. That was on me. But I mean, those teams lost those championships too. So like I didn't cost the team more than the team and I didn't win more than the team like players won or lost. What uh, what happened in 2010? I did harm. I did harm. Uh, so we had upset Laval in this epic semifinal. They were undefeated. And the Rudy Ver hoof bent ball era. You should talk to Benny about this, but, and man, we are feeling sweet. It's like I'm third year coaching. We're in the national final, Calgary upsets Alberta on the other side. So now we're playing Calgary and it's like neither of us belonged there. Like we both pulled upset and we had beaten them the last three times we played. But what we didn't understand is they had changed their lineup and all of a sudden now G was on the right side and, and Jay was in setting and like everything changed. And, uh, so we, uh, oh man. Before that game I was thinking that I'm gonna fire up the guys and like give them the, the motivation to, so I mean, I talked, we're gonna serve'em outta the gym and we're gonna overwhelm with our speed. And like, I was just so confident and fired up on our team. I had no idea how big those moments are. And it was like throwing gasoline on a bonfire. Like just, we made 21 unforced errors. The first two sets. Like just, just gave them two sets and then we settled in and then we traded sets. And it was a good volleyball game after that, which would've, should have been like, there's a reason those two teams are in the final. There's a reason, like they're awesome too. They were playing great. They'd figured it out just like we had, that's why we were both there. And then the idea to disrespect your opponent's ability and performance. And so I over jacked our team and then it cost us two sets. And that's the deal is what? I learned there was, and there's talk about lessons is your job is to enhance performance. And that's the only thing. Like I can't, I shouldn't be the one firing them. I should be the one taking the temperature of the team and figuring out, okay, they're pretty jacked up. Maybe I need to tell a funny joke or calm them down a bit. And um, you know, and then other times maybe they're a little bit like freaked out, so then you gotta break the ice. Like, I think I imposed my personality or my mindset on the team and it was wrong. As opposed to being a part of the mindset of the team and using my piece of the puzzle to help shape it. I think I got better at that after that. But I definitely feel like it cost that team that win for sure.

Mathias 51:44

what do you think would've happened if you come into that game and the boys play great and it's a quick three Oh, and you get the win? Do you think like lessons can be heavily skewed by the result that happens based off factors that weren't what you put in? You know what I mean?

Ben 52:05

Yeah. I think that comes to what we talked earlier. Like I, I wanna believe that I would've learned the same, uh, uh, some lessons from the win. Mm-hmm. And I think it's really important that you try to learn as many things, but the reality is you're just not motivated the same to evaluate. Mm-hmm. After. I guarantee that lesson I wouldn't have learned. Right. And I made that mistake later for sure, because that moment, I'm never gonna do that again. And I haven't, I made other mistakes. Million, but not that one.'cause that's lessons, you know? And the next time we won, that's what, well they're, they're linking stories. So we lose 20 10, 20 11, we're the home team and we get the worst draw we could imagine. It was a reverse tournament at home. And this is where we got sick. We had that, that awesome Alberta team in the quarter in our own gym like we had. So our day, our tournament could be over on day one. But then, so that's where Point Match was born. It was that weekend was just understanding, like to do something really, really hard, the ability to be present and have a framework to manage the stress emotions, to do something that we're gonna have to go through Alberta, Calgary, and then Sanderson, like, my gosh, um, no offense Brandon, but Sando was that team. Um, and then, but that, that's kinda where that whole thing came from, is, you know, and, and then the, the other part cool part of that is when you can connect something you're doing to something even bigger than volleyball. And then for us, that, that was a faith thing. Um, that with that team, um, then that actually makes it even more powerful because it's not. Something so small as volleyball. It's actually like a cultural thing. It's a beliefs for, you know, a core belief thing. Uh, I think that's when kind of mantras and things become really powerful. I mean, you think through history, like the worst things have been done when people have been connected to like deep religious beliefs or racial beliefs or like, these are the best and the worst things in history have been because of the, the magnitude of the, the idea. And not, not saying point mes just something like that, but I think connecting something to a really big powerful idea, connecting your methodology kind of gives some momentum to, to what you're trying to do.

Oog 54:31

Hmm.

Ben 54:32

Lake Point match

Jesse 54:35

is that also where I remember every year we were in the final, uh, you would say finals are never about volleyball. Is that where that idea came from as well?

Ben 54:47

Yeah, probably. I, I don't know if that one is as clear to me, but, um, I think that actually might've been Ron when, uh, when we won in oh six. Um, it was, if it was above volleyball that Alberta wins that every time. If it was above volleyball, we don't lose 23 either. But there's just so many things, like it's not a vol, it's one, it's one game. Anything can happen. The other team is awesome too,'cause they're in the final, but it's not about volleyball, it's about who can handle the moment. It is not it, you're good at volleyball, it's why you're there. It has nothing to do with the game anymore. It's just can you apply your performance under that duress and that stress and that in that moment. And I just think, I mean, I can't even imagine what that Olympic final's like, but I gotta think it's the same thing in all high pressure things. Like I, how do you, do you, it's not, and no, but on the flip side, it's probably, it is blah, blah volleyball. Like, can you reduce all of the stuff that's real and play the game, but you're good at the game, that's why you're in the, you're in the final, it's, you don't get there unless you're awesome at volleyball. You can't just lock your way into a final. So I mean, you gotta have some luck in the final for sure. Yeah, that's right. Hot, healthy and luck are the three things we've always talked about in finals and to be great to be champs. But I mean, that's cool.

Oog 56:15

Brandon University men's team this year.

Ben 56:17

What's that?

Oog 56:18

Brandon University men's team this year.

Ben 56:20

Apple, perfect example. They got a little lucky. They got, they were hot and they were healthy. I mean they were

Oog 56:28

time off. Boom. Yeah.

Ben 56:31

Yeah. And an unreal coach. But

Jesse 56:34

yeah. Should we move into your rapid fire questions? Oh no, you didn't do it.

Oog 56:42

No, I left them at work. Oh, they're sitting in the office. Okay, hold on. I'll just gimme one minute. I'll write them down if I can remember them, and then I'll just keep talking amongst yourselves. Okay. Okay. Well

Jesse 56:57

I got another question then. Good. Um, it's obviously evident how important people are and we've talked on the podcast before about EKGs and what that stands for and recruiting your, I would say you had equal importance between character and performance. Maybe correct me if I'm wrong, maybe it's a little 60 40 or whatever, but we were talking before the podcast, before we went live about your recruiting experience right now with Texas. And you have, what, what do you say, 200 athletes on 20 courts or something like that. And I presume you have maximum 30, 40 minutes with a group of 10, 10 women. Are you purely looking at performance then at that point, or are you still trying to find people that fit the culture or is the state so invested in winning that you just look for the best athletes and hope they fit the culture?

Ben 57:59

Um, it was super overwhelming when I first got to Kentucky. I mean, the first event I went to was, uh, the Bluegrass Tournament, I think, and there was 130 courts over three days. And I like walked in. I'm like, what is this? Like, how am I ever gonna see anything? Now we have this app that helps guide you places and they tell you what courts everyone's on, and they have like different symbols and yeah, it's, it's wild. But, but it was just like, how is this possible? But then as it's gone on, you start, it's, you've learned it's the same ratios. So in Canada, by the end, we were recruiting largely against maybe let's say two or three other schools for a player. Like, you know, so when we wanted a kid, it was, I don't know, let's say Alberta and then wherever they were from that typically is what it ended up. And then there was always like a, another team who was nipping in there. Like UBC was real good for a bit. Calgary was really good for a bit, you know, Manitoba had its moments like there, you know, there's always teams. And then, and then for a long time it was always McMaster, Alberta Trinity, and then where they're from. So the point is, let's say you're taught dealing with four schools, and then there's only probably five kids a year that could really help you. So then like really make a difference to your volleyball bit now. So that's, you probably needed to get one, maybe two of those kids, and then you needed a third or fourth kid in your, in your lineup. But now you're just really looking for an AKGs. Like I don't. Care if this kid ever really works out, he's gonna provide these things for the team. And if it works out, it's just a bonus. Worst case scenario, John Weep, perfect example, ends up starting his fifth year. We never thought he'd ever play a day, but what he was is the ultimate OKG, and he ended up being really good at volleyball. So that was, that was one of those great, but worst case scenario, if you never played, like he did everything we could ever ask John to do. So that was kind of the thoughts there. The ratios are pretty similar, they're just more so here in America, let's say there's 20 players that can help your team that you're dealing with, probably 40 teams recruiting those 20 players. So you're kind of in the same spot. Um, there's just, everything is bigger. So the cool part is like, you know when Shrier was coming out, you're like, oh boy, if we don't get this kid, like, I don't know what we're gonna do. Like there's only, he was one of one. Well, that, that doesn't happen here. Like you now the problem is there's five, let's say there's five Shriners, but now you gotta fend off 12 teams, not three teams. Correct. but I think the principle still stands, like you don't need the best players, you need comparable players and then you want the ones that fit your culture. And that's something that, um, Texas has done a killer job of is the kids that they've pulled in the last couple of seasons are like unreal character kids. So not only are they great players,'cause you know, Texas, Trinity, Alberta Mac, like you're gonna pull in talent. They chose really high character kids. So like, it feels a lot like our gym at Trinity right now. And it's super exciting. Like these kids are, they want to get after it, they wanna be good, they're really good to each other. They're super engaged, they're fun. Like, I was expecting like kind of like very selfish into themselves players'cause like, you know, don't understand like Texas is so famous, but these kids are unreal. Like they feel, they remind me so much of you guys like amazing players and really awesome kids. Uh, I'm excited to see what they can do. But I think to your point of recruiting, it's the principles are the same. And I think that's one of those great lessons is men's to women's volleyball, Canada, America, like universe, great principles become universal. And I think that's one of those great leadership things like, and they, they transition from volleyball to basketball to business to, and I think that's kind of what you guys have been exploring in these podcasts. It's like what are the common themes between Kevin Tilly and Brody Fer and me that like high performers. Do, um, you know, and then how does that permeate into all parts of their lives? And I think that's kind of what I'm learning about our principles is good people who perform exhibit these types of behaviors, um, and these ones in my coaching context, get expanded upon. These ones are damaging, they don't jive. And I think that's a part of the relationship piece, which sucks down here, is we don't get to do that. So we don't get to build, like, you know, how many times did we guys have calls and coffees before you guys ended up coming, right? Like, so much time getting to know each other and watching and hanging out. And we just don't do that because of the rules here. So it's harder for sure. We don't get to really build that relationship.

Jesse 1:02:49

Interesting.

Mathias 1:02:50

And, uh, for the listeners at home, OKG means our kind of guy, which is, or gal. No. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Are you using that? Uh, that or not? But yeah, in Texas, our kind of gal,

Ben 1:03:03

um, yeah, I know. I, I think that belief is, is ingrained, uh, here and I think, you know, that that's something that I would say. I think, yeah. I, I, I shouldn't, I don't wanna put words in anyone anyone's mouth, but I think we've all, I know I've done this too. I've chased talent a few times and compromised. It's like, ah, but he's so athletic, like, we gotta take a shot. Honestly, it hasn't worked out yet. I. When we brought a kid in, we knew it was gonna be a challenge. It didn't work out. And I think we, we've seen a couple kids, I observed players transferring out of Texas previously that, I wonder if that was it. I don't know. I've watched kids transfer out other schools and not go on to great courage elsewhere. I don't know. I, I, that's why I don't wanna speak, like I wasn't here. I don't know their context. I know our context and I know I did that. And I know those kids, a couple of those athletes just didn't, they, they didn't work out in my environment and, uh, a couple of'em actually thrived once they left. So it just shows that you can't coach everybody. Well, they don't all, not everyone fits into your style, but Yeah.

Jesse 1:04:22

Right. Before we get into s questions, I have one more. Yeah. Question about, uh, now that you're coaching women full time, what about what can the men's game take from the women's game and vice versa?

Ben 1:04:41

Hmm. Yeah, that's a good, good word. So, the way I answered questions like this before is the men could learn a lot from the way the women have attention on their detail and everything they're doing. And the women, I'm sorry, the, let's clarify. These are generalizations. So every athlete's on a spectrum, it's like I've had, you have men on all sides of women on all sides. But I would, I would generalize my experience by saying the men could do better with their details. The women could do better by playing. And I think you have these freak show athletes in the women's gym, but they're, they grab onto a mechanic or a footwork thing too much. It limits their natural athleticism. And so then they become more robotic than, than they should at times. And I think a lot of men don't understand how important efficiency of movement and balance and postures and positionings are. And I work and because, ah, I just wanna jump a hit. Like think about my kids, like they don't wanna hit balls in the range. They wanna go play the par three. And we know that you're gonna get good at the game by playing the game, but there's also an attention to detail to maximize your tools to perform well. And I think that's something we worked really, really hard at Trinity and became pretty good at movement and discipline of mechanics and then allowed some freedom to go play now and like let you guys create. I think that's something that we've been really working hard at Texas is like how do we let these girls like be freaks and not just drill babies? Which I think is the natural tendency I. Um, and I think the higher the stakes, the more we want to have control as coaches. And I think that happens a lot down here. Um, coaches are trying to overco things because the stakes are so high. Like, you're making a ton of money and you're gonna get fired if you don't win. So then because of that, like they overdo it. And that's, I think that's a limiting force for, for the athletes. So that, that would be how I generalize that. Um, and there's a lot more there, but that's probably the generalization. Yeah. I feel like we could talk about that for hours. Oh yeah. It's been, it's been amazing. And then there's a spectrum, like there's certain athletes. I, we had this one kid at Kentucky that, I mean, she was a, the way she like played was a dude. It was awesome. Like we had to like, no, can you just step with your left foot more? Like, please stop just flying and doing cool stuff. But she was awesome. So super fun to work with. And then she felt a lot like, what are you guys, like, you're just trying to like, great, this is what you can do. Like, can we just shape some of the chaos? And then there's, uh, other girls like, you know that IC phrase like, can you just look cooler? Like, I want you to look cool. Like do the coolest thing you've ever done. Yeah. I just want you to like really look like you're gonna get hate because of how cool you look in this game. So,'cause don't look like a volleyball player. Just look like a swaggy athlete. And I think I have more of those conversations than the other one that's for sure. Whereas with you boys, I never had to say look cooler. I mean, I had to tell you guys to stop having so much.

Jesse 1:08:05

Yeah. Get on the toes. Your hair is not that

Ben 1:08:08

important. I'd rather you,

Jesse 1:08:13

that's so funny. One.

Oog 1:08:18

Yeah. Okay. I'm actually fired off both these. I made some new ones. Boy revamped some old ones. So let's get into it. Rapid fire questions with og. Um, okay. Kind of a theme that I've been going on for the last couple that I've done was if you could do one occupation that had nothing to do with sports, what would you do and why?

Ben 1:08:39

Oh boy. I do with sports can stay at home dad count.

Oog 1:08:44

Oh, sure. I don't know.

Ben 1:08:45

Yeah.

Oog 1:08:46

That's a great, that's a great, I like that. That's a great answer.

Ben 1:08:48

I try to change jobs with my wife every day. Okay.

Oog 1:08:55

What is the favorite golf course that you've played in whatever country and what made it more fun than any other golf course? And what'd you shoot? Yeah. And what did you tell people you shoot and what did you actually shoot?

Ben 1:09:17

So, yeah. Or here's an insight. It's probably my personality that apple rock. I shot 75. Wow. And I loved Apple Rock because I shot 75. There you go. And what and where And that, that's the par three course. Yep. Yep. That part was supposed to stay quiet. T

Oog 1:09:40

Oh, that's funny. Um, what's your favorite part of Texas and like, how is it different than Canada or what do you miss? What do you like about Texas, but what do you miss about Canada or vice versa?

Ben 1:09:58

Easy to say. What I miss, I miss people. Uh, I miss being around all the people we love and care about. Um, the best part, I mean, that lake's pretty awesome.

Oog 1:10:13

Yeah, that's pretty great.

Ben 1:10:16

Yeah.

Jesse 1:10:19

You've eaten

Ben 1:10:19

a lot of barbecue down there. Yeah. Too much brisket, man. Oh, I think I'm gonna have a blood pressure issue soon. I could only dream. No, and you know what? Let me, let me, that's what else I love about Texas. And, and again, this isn't a UT propaganda thing, but, um, I feel very much like, um, I just, the parallels between what Texas is and what Trinity was, um, it's close. I feel a lot of those similarities with like the high performance mindset, the staff, um. The, the mindset, like, it, it feels really cool. And so I'm really fired up about coaching right now. And, uh, man, I haven't felt that way in a while. Um, and that's not, that's not a knock on Canada or Kentucky or anything like that. Um, I just don't think that, I think when you find a fit, it changes. And I think you guys know exactly what that feels like. It's like, man, it, it's not Trinity and nothing ever will be, I'll never care about anything. Like I cared about that. But this feel, it feels really cool. So I'm really, really enjoying my time so far.

Oog 1:11:28

Okay. I got two more. Um, going back to Kentucky. You went to the Kentucky Derby, right? No.

Ben 1:11:34

No. Oh, I know. But I went to Keeneland. So Keeneland is like the precursor that we have in Lexington before the Derby. Okay. But I a derby.

Oog 1:11:43

Dang. I I got really fired off both the Kentucky Derby this year. Yeah. And I, I wanted you to, I I, for some reason, I convinced myself that you'd gone to the Kentucky Derby.

Ben 1:11:54

Alright. Let's pretend I had,

Oog 1:11:55

well I just wanted you to break it down, like how was it, what'd you wear? But I mean, that's What'd

Ben 1:12:00

you wear?

Oog 1:12:02

That's a big part of it to Ben wearing a big hat and some red sunglasses or something. I don't know.

Ben 1:12:08

That's a lot. That's too much for me. Yeah. But, um, the, uh, I think one of my buddies I played hockey with in Lexington on the beer league, um, I think his horse finished second. Wow. I think so. Cool. There's no way he'll ever watch this, so we'll never. No. Yeah, yeah. Right. Cool.

Oog 1:12:24

Let's just go with it. That's freaking cool. Yeah, no, horse racing is one of the coolest sports. I think. Like it's the, just the culture behind it and like, people are, people get wild about watching horses run a half mile.

Ben 1:12:37

Yeah. Well, fun story. We, when relaxing, we first get there, we go to like, uh, I, it's Clayborne Farms I wanna say, but it's where Secretariat's buried we we're and stuff. Gracie's Stewy cartwheels on Secretariat's grave. It's got, they're gonna throw us out of Kentucky, like we been near a week. And um, it was pretty funny. So. That's cool. That's hilarious.

Oog 1:13:01

Yeah. Okay, last one. Have you gotten any better at the banjo and are you still making time for your hobbies? Like music?

Ben 1:13:13

I have not gotten much better at the banjo. Um, I've still tried to get better at guitar, but I'm getting pretty good at golfing and that the hobby that I'm spending time on. Yeah. And the reason for all of that is my kids are starting to come to the range with me. And that's, I mean, the ultimate hobby is, I mean, and I think that's kind of what Jen I talked about is like, I coach volleyball and I raise my children like that's it now. Oh, I haven't told you, but like, I'm playing hockey three days a week right now too. So. That's pretty fun. But, um, so I'm trying to make time for those things, you know, but again, I'm trying like think about significant security. Like I love competing and I've got some boys to drink beers with after a game. Like, that's, that's good stuff. So, um,

Mathias 1:14:04

yeah. Yeah. That's fun. Cool. Okay. Well that's a dream. Golfing. Golfing with the kids.

Ben 1:14:10

Yeah. Daddy CAD's the retirement plan. So I don't know which one of them's gonna get good, but I'm thinking it's the little one, but yeah. Which one's the little one now? Well, yeah, I know The Grace is not the little one. She's the youngest one. She's

Jesse 1:14:23

foster. That's awesome. Uh, Ben, I gotta run. I got a scrimmage against the A team here. Alright. But, uh, it was really good to see you. Amazing, Jess. That was really special for me. It's nice. Uh, big positive influence right now. Right on man. This has been, that's awesome. Move on. Thanks for having me. Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. Luck your game. Thank you. Love you coach. Happy birthday. Tea.

Oog 1:14:46

Go kick some butt brother. Try

Jesse 1:14:48

my best.

Mathias 1:14:51

Cool. Sweet. Um, what else you got? Yeah, I'm, you said you've been watching the show. Yeah. Uh, I don't know how much, but I'm curious if you've heard anything that we've said that you disagree with.

Ben 1:15:10

No, definitely not. I think. I, I, I don't think I disagree with a lot of volleyball things, but I don't think I ever disagree with philosophy or principles or beliefs. I, I think that's foolish. So when somebody tells, says something that they think like, that comes from somewhere authentic and experiential, and I think that's awesome. I don't, some things hit better than others. Like some, you know, I'm, I'm, I bet you I think about a viewer in this one, or even you guys, I've said way too many words, but of let's say I've said a hundred things, maybe 30 of'em you liked and 70 30 of'em you're like, maybe and then 30 you're like, nah, I don't, that didn't hit. I guess I don't believe like disagree. I disagree with that belief. No. No. Because that's an authentic belief. I'm not making stuff up. But I think that's kind of the cool part of listening to these things is there's a couple nuggets that someone's gonna take from that hit for their experience. A couple that are gonna inspire some thought and maybe that leads to something else. I think that's where I've loved going to all these coaches symposiums or these different things.'cause you don't learn anything but you're inspired or a thought is birthed and then that leads to something really cool. Um, you know, think about like, or even just our boots in the mud, circling back to that, like that. Just like, oh, yeah. Oh yeah. And then it all just starts to form. I think that's when like these really cool ideas pop up.

Mathias 1:16:47

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense to me. What's something, let's say about volleyball, what's something that you used to believe that you no longer do? Hmm.

Ben 1:17:00

Oh man. That setters are important.

Oog 1:17:07

Oh, get,

Ben 1:17:11

um, break that down For us, that's an overstatement. I mean, every player's important. Set's important, but I think they're far less important than, uh, than I used to.

Oog 1:17:21

Hmm.

Ben 1:17:21

Uh, now I, every time I say something like, or if I say something like that, people are like, okay, you had five straight All American, or all Canadian national setters. Like, I know, I know, but, so maybe I'm not the right person to say something like that. But I just think when you just break down the game statistically, it's like an outside game, outside player's game. Um, unless you have King Kong opposite, which we really never have at Trinity. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I've never really had that player, so I don't know what that feels like. But, um, best teams are the ones who have the best left sides. Pretty sure. I, it's kind of what, what I've come to believe now. Um, what else? I'm, I'm stuck right now on this whole serving thing. Remember like we went through this, a bunch of trinity, like let's never miss a serve and statistically it should play out.'cause statistically it plays out the, the, the rule of volleyball is if relative side out wins, if you outside out your opponents mathematically, you can't lose that set. Now you can lose a match because the five, but you can't lose a set mathematically. So then we were messed with those numbers a couple years. Remember that one game in Calgary, we just only float served the full weekend. Yeah. Like we, we did some math and like we never miss a serve. They can't side out better than us. And it played out. But man was that hard. He was just hard giving a team the ball and just letting them be in system the whole time and pumping. So that, that led to understanding just how emotional the game is and how a momentum and mindset, our, like huge factors. I think that's the great lesson there. So, um, it made me believe that, I mean, as much as statistical truths are there, like, geez, there's a lot of voodoo in volleyball and, uh, that's stressful because yeah, we control the voodoo. Um, um, so I think everything, I would say, I believe everything less than I used to. The older I get, I don't, I, I think I just don't believe in a lot of universals anymore.

Mathias 1:19:29

Uh, cool. I like that, that, uh, that serving philosophy, one with the Calgary game, that led to one of my bigger leadership mistakes in my, in my whole career.'cause we did that. Um, everyone on the team float served and we blocked Defensed everything, but they were in system the whole time. And then the following summer I was on the junior national team and we were playing Brazil in, uh, at the World Championships, uh, U 21. And, uh, we missed like, I think eight, eight or nine serves in the second set and we're down 2.0. And I was like, guys, everyone, let's just all float serve. We'll play block defense. We'll get our nine points back and then, and then we'll win.'cause that's what happened in Calgary. But you can't do that against Brazil. Like it's, Darlan was playing for that team. So he is already touching 12 feet, hitting one 20. Whole team is popping in float serves. They sided out at like 99%.

Ben 1:20:27

Yeah,

Mathias 1:20:28

we're just getting absolutely shelled And I was like, oh, boy on a high net. Yeah. You can't just copy paste strategies across the board there. So that was, that was a big mistake. Yeah. Um, what do you think about, where's your philosophy out on defense? Because I was chatting with Ron Pike the other day and he was saying, when you took over. Your big thing was that you were gonna implement way more defensive training and that the boys needed to learn how to dig. And then by the time I got there, you, your philosophy was that digging doesn't matter.

Ben 1:21:01

So one thing I know about Ron is Ron loves to say things that make him be smarter. Okay? So I have zero recollection of this conversation, but it sure does Ron look right, that we should be training block. Uh, I that's a joke aside. I mean, some truth, but the reality is, is um, going from an assistant coach where all you have is ideas to, to what you experienced in the head coaching chair, where now you are implementing these ideas and some of them are failing miserably, makes you realize, oh, and we'd see this with our parents, right? It's like, oh, I, why would they do that? And then all of a sudden you get a little older and like, hmm, there is some wisdom with our folks that, you know, there's a, I went through that a lot where, and I probably don't do this enough where I should probably call Ron. Like, yeah, you were right. You were right. I should have done that. But you know what, and that's like our children too, is sometimes they have to fail to learn those lessons'cause they, you know, they needed to find it for themselves. And then, you know, as a coach, I watched you guys go through that sometimes too. Like, oh, I've seen this before. Eh, just gonna let it happen.'cause this might need to happen and For sure. So like I guarantee that's probably a true story and I probably believe that. And then I started training, digging and realized this is a pretty irrelevant to volleyball. We need to block more balls and start better this, it's just hard to dig. So.

Mathias 1:22:26

Right. And is that, is that your, your belief still, is it different in women's volleyball because you can actually dig a lot more balls?

Ben 1:22:37

Yeah, I think the, the, for sure you could dig way more balls. So I mean, the transition phase is way more important. So I think the principle is if you let a flame thrower get the ball past your block, it's hard to dig. It just digs more so like pe you know, a good defender is going to dig the ball more often. It gets a great spike than it meant well, it's still not good enough. It's still better to block it and slow the ball down, like those, that principle exists. But you can dig it. I mean, you let darland get an open net. I mean, poor bro is not digging that ball very often. You let Olivia Babcock have open net, you're still not digging it often, but just more than darling. So I just, the, the dig ability is higher, but also they have like, we have like nine li barrels in the court at all times, so, right. Yeah. Little diggers everywhere. So, um, but they're smaller so there's more court. So it's, it's unique, like there's more shot variation potential'cause there's more space to hit. But the diggers are better and the power's not quite as much. So your uncommon ability to space is more important versus just creating sheer power opportunities. But even then, mental volleyball, everyone's gotten to way more, um, kind of uncommon accuracy. Like people aren't just overpowering defenders anymore. Like they're finding space and yeah, playing lots of block off shot blocks and really a lot of flat shots. Like, so I think the games are resembling each other a lot more now.

Mathias 1:24:08

Yeah, I would agree. It blew my mind in France, how how often guys would make like hero digs. They would, they would make like one in 10 digs, seven outta 10 times. So it's like, yeah, that the standard is so high now for ability to keep the ball off the floor, especially in France. It's a ball control league, but those guys like it, it was, it was incredible. Uh, what they were doing on this, sorry, go ahead.

Ben 1:24:39

I was just gonna say you saw, you see it with Japan and France and the success that you had in this last quad, like two just te teams that are more, again, great blocking teams, but very schemed blocking teams. So then a lot of times they're in isolation on defense because the scheme went wrong. I mean, you see, but that's great because they have the ability to make those digs enough to to matter, and then so it lets them scheme themselves into isolation.

Oog 1:25:03

So.

Mathias 1:25:04

Yeah. Along those lines, can you talk about, um, defenders reading and seeing ghosts?

Ben 1:25:13

Yeah. So I think the phrase I love from Tom was, you don't go anywhere unless you see something. or Know something. I think that's a, and then, so all of a sudden you have athletes all the time, like, oh, I thought she was hitting here. I thought I saw. It's like, yeah, you saw a ghost. Like it wasn't real. And I think, you know, everyone's trying to play their players in the positions where the balls go. So whether it's a game plan or a system thing, but then players just love to run to spaces that are imaginary. So that's one of our favorite phrase is like, did you see a ghost? Or did you see something real? I saw a ghost. Exactly. Like, just can you just hold your spot and wait to see something real?'cause if you don't know, then just stay home. You know, stay in your base or stay in your game plan spot. We want athletes to have the freedom to read because athletes have to make plays. And no amount of game plan or system is ever gonna put you guys in the right spot all the time. But you also can't imagine something. And that's so learning how to have great eye work, how to great reach. And then if you're seeing ghosts, you're actually minimizing your learning as well because you, if you move to a spot based on a ghost, not only. Only did you misinformation, you had a negative response. Like there's no positive response to the lesson. So for instance, like if you were here and they pump over there like, huh, what did I not see? Like it's so there's a positive correlation to the, the, the kind of database of learning. Whereas if you go here and they hit there, we have to get back to neutral before we can learn the positive, if that makes sense. Like, yeah, you went negative. If at least if you're neutral, you gotta, you can move to the right spot next time. Mm-hmm. Whereas you, we gotta stop you from seeing goals before we can start to learn the right things.

Mathias 1:27:03

Right? Yeah. Is there, is there value in, um, separating that in training, like giving opportunity to read, like just go wild, go where you think the ball's going or go where you think you see the ball's going and then other opportunity where it's just systematizing and you just stand there? Because I think, again, I was always, I felt good at just doing my job and my job was to stand in the right spot. And so then I never even really tried to read. I would just stand there, wait to see the ball, and then try to dig it. Whereas if I had, uh, experimented more Yeah, with, with learning those patterns and, and reading, maybe I would've been a better offender.

Ben 1:27:46

Totally. I think your coach needed to be better for sure. For you. Um, I think so I think there's two parts to, uh, to that answer is one. You, you doing your job is the baseline and that's great, but then you have to build on that. Like you have to go make plays. So you have to be able to read and then you have to go and maybe see a ghost or two. And because you, but like, why did I see that? So I think that idea, don't go until you see something. Know something is core, but then the ability to fail and learn is the other part. And you have to pursue plays, not just default into it. So maybe some, some more activities where it was like they're spiking and you have the whole court by yourself. Maybe something like that would let you just kind of try to figure out the read. I mean, that's where like games like beach are amazing. Mm. But again, beach guys, they're not seeing ghosts either. Like they're intentionally doing something and yeah, they get beat sometimes'cause there's so much court. But like there, there's an intentionality to the way, like you can't see ghosts and be good at beach either. So I think there's a sweet spot. And if you felt like that, then I failed you as a coach because if you felt like you weren't free to make plays, then I, it's on the coach's environment to free you up to play within the framework more freely now. I think that's the philosophy and maybe that, so if someone like yourself who's like really mindful of doing the right things, maybe a, a good coaching tactic for someone, like an athlete like you would've been to like break you outta that a little bit more and let you try to do more. Freedom to read and build a database that way, whereas other players who are like freewheeling all the time need some more structure. Yeah. And I think that's part of the, the creativity of Yeah. Yeah. Maybe part of the variability of being a good coach is understanding what certain athletes need inside of your framework. Right? I mean, you need some more freedom pushed on you, whereas Colton, Lowen needs a little more structure to where he's

Mathias 1:29:56

Yeah. That makes, that's cool. That's really cool. Ton of sense to me. Um, on the topic of experimentation, one thing that was amazing in, in your gym at Trinity was just the freedom to try and, uh, or maybe not even, like most of the ideas weren't coming from us, but you felt the freedom to try and experiment with our systems and, uh, you know, trying to run a double pipe or use the slide because no one uses the slide. Uh, all just so much experimenting. What, where does that come from? Why is that valuable and what's the balance between doing what works versus, uh, always just pushing the limits of something different that may or may not be better?

Ben 1:30:47

Maybe we were just bored.

Mathias 1:30:50

Yeah. Yep.

Ben 1:30:52

I mean, for sure in COVID we got weird because yeah, we were training for sure. But um, I think now the cool part to remember is how many of those things do we actually do? I,

Mathias 1:31:05

yeah. Not many. That's, that's my question because there's, there's like, there's some things that like started as a seed and then grew and became really valuable, but then lost them just get chopped off because they just didn't work.

Ben 1:31:16

Exactly. So any innovation wasn't perfected when it started in ev in anything. So how many times do you think they failed at flying before they flew? So I think, but if they never kept trying, then they never would've flown. And I think that's to me what our innovation or our curiosity needs to continue for. And, and I think doing stuff as long as it came, like, alright, so the double pipe, the double pipe was birthed because our D ball sucked. So if the D ball's bad, the right side ball is more efficient than the D ball. Okay. So we upgrade there, then the, but then we have two gaps in the middle of the court. We gotta occupy. Well the on U is a pretty efficient ball, but then we still have this other gap. How do we occupy that? Well then let's figure out who can fill that. So like the principle guiding that experiment was sound, the way it played out is like. It's gonna happen so infrequently that it's not worth the training to apply it. But you know, what we learned is a lot of cool stuff about Jordan Schnitzer ability to hit right side. And we learned an awful lot about kind of a wide pipe versus an audio pipe and we, and so there was a lot of really cool things that we learned trying to follow a principle. So I think that's one example or the slide like, great, well the slide, what we learned about the slide is left side, just go block it. So they, they just leave. So it just gives you an open B. So great. What we learned was we can't hit it, but what we did learn is just to kinda peel a blocker so we can set B. So I think that's the cool part is not getting wed to your original plan. I mean, are you trying something because it's, it's been rooted in some principles that you believe in and then figure out well like what are you actually learning? Like I think you read these stories about these inventions a lot of times that what wasn't, what they were trying to invent. They're trying to invent something else, but then the, oh, look at this, this is kind of cool. And then they go there like, I dunno, like the sticky note or like you read these stories and I think that's kind of why it's important to keep trying to mess with your structure. Otherwise you're just kind of the same as everyone else. And if you don't have better players, then you can't win. Also, I'm pretty sure we were bored. Yeah. In

Mathias 1:33:33

COVID. Definitely. Definitely one. Yeah.

Oog 1:33:37

I gotta piece out, I gotta go to work. I'm late here so I'm gonna go sell some. We drop flies. Luck fill up at the local UFA.

Ben 1:33:47

Oh man. Right on.

Oog 1:33:49

Okay, love you Ben. Take care. Thanks for coming on. Alright man. Peace out. Happy birthday T.

Mathias 1:33:55

Thank you.

Oog 1:33:56

bye

Mathias 1:34:02

then. Number two. Cool. Yeah. Um, I love that, um, principled experimentation.'cause yeah, if you can, you can kind of lose yourself probably if you're just trying stuff for the sake of trying, but if there's a reason behind it, that makes a ton of sense for me.

Ben 1:34:21

I also feel like every major innovation in volleyball was made by an athlete, not a coach.

Mathias 1:34:26

Mm.

Ben 1:34:26

So, I don't know how true this is, but like, I imagine the jump serve was just you guys in a practice warm one up. It's like, well, I bet you I can hit from here. It's like, no, I bet you I can hit from here. It's like, well, I could hit from the service line, like, bullshit, do it. And then sure enough, it's like guy hits it and some coach saw him like, Hey, that's legal. Like, let's figure out how to train that and repeat that and make it a repeatable skill. Same thing like, you know, the N'gapeth pipe on two, like I just guarantee it the ball was dug and he just jumped and hit it one day. Mm-hmm. Then, then somebody's like, well, I'm not letting you do that. And then they blocked him and then he's like told his buddy, like, Hey, be ready. I'm gonna set you. Then he did. And then now it's become organized and systematized by coaches so that it's a repeatable part of a system because it makes sense. The best way to win highball is don't play. So now you don't play out. So again, these weren't, I, these, there's no way coaches sit in his office going, all right, when the setter digs, he's gonna dig it to Earvin and he's gonna come out and fake spike and set the, like, that was never the thing. Right. But then about Jesse's set to Pierce on the, on the three.

Oog 1:35:37

Mm-hmm.

Ben 1:35:37

Like, that was like, we were just joking around like, do you think you can set middle like Pierce? I'll be there. And Jesse's like, oh, I could do it. Like that wasn't, that wasn't something we hatched in the office that was just, we were repping the pipe on too. And then Pearson just standing there like a goon and wanted to be involved. So then he and Jesse figured it out, and then, and then they tried it, the game and it worked. And it was like, but again, it, that's the cool part is like, if you don't create space for innovation, for your athletes to be creative and find new solutions, then it will never happen. Hmm. Like again, like the fake spike, lefty drop, which is now quite a common attack by many, many athletes. Well, there's no way a coach invented that. That was some athlete given the freedom to try and almost all these things come down to end cappa. Yeah. Right. But I think there's just not a, every innovation, like the forward pass, you know, or like coaches systematize things, athletes innovate. So letting your, a lot of our experimentation. Led us to organizing. Like again, when we played Power Tech, we realized that Schnitzy was unbelievable Spiker on the outside, you know, and when we had Jesse set, we realized Jesse's a really great setter. And what we learned is warden's quite a good blocker in the middle. He reads great, his block footwork is awesome. When he jumped in the basic block drill and like better than the middle. So like all of these like random things that appeared in practice, we were like, how do we use that? And then that weird six two was kind of hatched to try to take advantage of like, holy crap, Mathias is a great spiker, and then holy crap, you know, let's have Jordan hit all three zones and let's have'em hit 1D ball because like watching what happened. But if we never played Power V Tech, we never would've realized that Schnitzy was that good at those things. We never would've realized some of the, and then utilized people's skills that way. So there's that freedom within the system bit. And then honestly, the stakes are so low for so long in Canada, with our trade, with our schedule, we have months of games that don't matter. I mean Horton, but they're not crushing, right? So case in point, we can float sur against Calgary for a whole weekend. And I was prepared to lose both games to learn that.

Mathias 1:37:51

Yeah.

Ben 1:37:52

But here in, in, in our NCAA calendar, like you can't lose those games.

Mathias 1:37:56

Right. That makes it more difficult to, for the, to create those opportunities to experience.

Ben 1:38:02

We don't, we're not in the gym enough to, to really experiment. Mm-hmm. Like, we won't see our girls again until August 6th. So we have this training time in the spring and this long precinct, we have three weeks in the fall. We have 17 days to be ready for the first match and the Wow. Yeah. Matches are must win. Like you have four opening weeks and they must win games. So it's like you just don't have a lot of time. Yeah. So everything's about repeatability and getting good at kind of your base and you start to layer stuff in as you go. But especially at a place like Texas, like the stakes are so high, we have to win.

Mathias 1:38:38

Yeah. Oh, that makes it tough. Yeah. A little different. I, I, I noticed, uh, when you were speaking earlier about, um, coaching men versus women, I noticed the same, uh, thing in when I coach just private lessons or small group stuff, especially with setters, like the girls will just do exactly what I tell them. And it's like, it's like programming a computer, right? Like it just runs on the loop that you, that you told it. then for on the experimentation side, the guys oftentimes will not do what I told them to do, but they do something else that maybe is better. And then I just say, do that again. And that's kind of what you're talking about. But from a team. Context with the, for sure the system stuff or the, the new techniques. Like Yeah, I, I've noticed that as well. It's like sometimes they just do it better than you could have told them to do it. And then your job is to just tell'em to do it again and then figure out how to teach other people how to do it that way as well.

Ben 1:39:34

Because incredibly wise coaching observation, like, just think about you when you were training you and warden setting, you're not the same player. You don't set the same, you don't have the same rhythm. Now there's some principles, like we believe in framework and cylinder control and rotation and these things we believe in, but how you do it and how he did it were completely different. So how your hands worked and his like, so having this is what we believe now. Yeah. Like let, let's figure how you do it. Like how make you good. You know, you love way more of this, where he wanted more of this and great, it's awesome. We just need the ball there on time and rhythm from a repeatable way. How you go about it, how he goes about it. It doesn't need to be the same. And I think a lot of coaches, especially in me when I was young, I wanted everyone to look the same because I didn't have enough bandwidth to handle that many variations to coach. And so as my bandwidth grew, I was more comfortable with more styles and I was more comfortable with the principles I believed in. You know, and then that's where we make mistakes still. Like I made a bunch of those mistakes with Canada, like trying to force people into my bandwidth. That's, I didn't have enough bandwidth to handle some of the things that those athletes could do and some of the things the opponents were doing. It's like, shit, I'm just not good enough to coach this much variation at that precision. And, you know, and that's one of those things like, jeepers, I gotta get better. You know? And now, now here in America, like same thing, like huge learning curve on what you can and can't do and what the athletes can and can't do, and how they respond to stuff and the pressures that they're under. Like, there's just so much different. And that's the, the cool lesson is every context is unique and it's a puzzle. And how do you figure that puzzle out faster than the other guys, the other girls? So that, but I think that bandwidth bit is important. And it's important to understand if you, if you know you don't have it, give your like, just be more flexible, quicker. Mm

Oog 1:41:29

mm

Ben 1:41:29

Gotcha. Then

Mathias 1:41:30

that'll help. Right. That makes sense. And then probably over time you can see similarities player to player. Like all those, those like, oh, you got Adam's feet or whatever, or dumb balls. Uh, don't do that,

Ben 1:41:45

Oh, don't do that. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. That's a, I think that's a, a trap. Cool. I think one of, and there's lessons for coaching of coach, uh, coach. This is in the book, my, my kids book. Yeah. Yeah. Don't compare your, your players to each other. Hmm. Um, and we tell our kids all the time, don't compare. Don't compare yourself to your brother, don't compare yourself to your sister. Don't compare yourself to others. You can. You will never be them and you can never match them. Now you can steal their skills and emulate great behaviors you care about. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's a different mindset than comparing. It's like, oh man, you're so much like Adam's feet. Well, what if you don't want Adam's feet?

Oog 1:42:28

Yeah.

Ben 1:42:28

What? That's what if you don't want that, what if you don't wanna be compared to Adam? What if you hate Adam? What if you are now like, it's just like it's fixed mindset, growth mindset stuff. Now I'm putting you in Adam's like, well now you have to have feet like hip. So, oh man, Adam's the best. I have to have feet like him now. Like what does he do now? What started off as just a simple compliment is now fix your brain into trying to beat Adam's feet. Right? That was never intended though. It was trying to compliment you.

Oog 1:42:57

Hmm.

Ben 1:42:58

That's where like comparison just works in crazy ways with athletes now. I, so, I mean, that's something we fight hard with our kids and I try never to do with athletes and I've done many, many times and I right after saying like, dang it. So I think, you know, and so I think we talk about this a lot. You wanna find the great player performers in your, in your position and in your game, and you wanna steal their qualities and emulate what, but as a coach or leader, we don't ever wanna say. And compare. I just think that that sets the athlete up for failure. Yeah.

Mathias 1:43:37

So

Ben 1:43:38

that's been my experience.

Mathias 1:43:39

Yeah, that's, that's a great point. I think, um, probably every setter at Trinity has experienced that because we do that ourselves. Yes. Trying to live up to the guy before us and, uh, yeah. I guess as a, as a coach, you help help find players, find themselves

Ben 1:44:00

and it's so subtle, right? Like, I, I, I would love for you to have a better heel, finger release like, like Warden does.

Oog 1:44:09

Mm-hmm.

Ben 1:44:10

So instead of saying, Hey, I want you to have those hands, or your hands, remind me of Warden. It's like, I don't want that. I want, he's like, Hey, you know what I love about Warden's hands? I love the way his hands kick and I just love how clean his finger release is. I love that about his release. And what I love about Adam, his, his ability to manipulate his release timing above the net. I love that about Adam. You know, what I love about Josh is Josh's ability to play the ball so high and be able to spike it at the same time, or, you know, I love about Ka is you know, how big his hands are and how long he could hold the ball at Extension. And what I love about Benny Ball is he could set right side from in front of him But like saying that you need to do that or comparing you to another, I don't dunno. I just think that's dangerous.

Oog 1:44:55

Yeah,

Ben 1:44:56

I'd agree. All those things you should probably steal, like Well, that's why we study video.

Mathias 1:45:00

Yeah.

Ben 1:45:01

You know what, this weekend at Gold Medal Square, we, there was something they said that was really cool for me is, um, they talked about video feedback and they talked about watching yourself isn't as good as watching the model. And this, tell me what you think of this is like, all right, so if you we're working on a setting move and we want to model after Baard, let's say Baard is our optimal model for rotation release, which actually he's pretty amazing at that. That's probably a good, so instead of having you set and having the loop on you watching you fight through, like sir, alright, we'll show you some bizarre, here's 10 clips of him and now we'll put your, your loop on the TV and you can just watch yourself work through Kayleigh better at your rotation. One of the things they were suggesting was, it would be better for us to have ARDS loop on the tv. So you set and then you watch him, and then you set yourself and you watch him. They're suggesting that your movements will synthesize to the model better than watching yourself. And that leads to our comparison bit. So if you're watching Optimal Move. Now I think the ultimate model would be you doing it right? That we have on loop. I think that's a whole nother level. Like imagine if we have 10 clips of you doing it perfectly right. And that's our loop. You could just watch yourself do it. I don't know if that's better or not, but the um, but they're suggesting watching your own loop is not as effective as watching them moment. I think there's something really interesting.

Mathias 1:46:45

Yeah. That's so cool.

Ben 1:46:46

Yeah. I wanna dive into that.

Mathias 1:46:48

Yeah. Yeah. I love that too because one of my favorite things to do when I was playing was just pretend I'm someone else.

Oog 1:46:55

Yeah.

Mathias 1:46:56

That was like one of my, the best ways to get me outta my head and also to learn new skills was like when I was learning how to spike and like I can barely even get the ball to go across court.'cause like my shoulder's so internal, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna pretend I'm Eric today. Yeah. And then all of a sudden I can do it. Not'cause I don't know how to do that. Like it was just in my mind, I was trying to make myself look like Eric and then, and then my body knows what it's supposed to do'cause I've seen him do it so many times. There's so much science on

Ben 1:47:26

that external queuing. Mm-hmm. And I think that's even another level extra.'cause you're personally external queuing yourself to a model that you've seen. Like, you've know, you've seen Eric spike a thousand balls. You know what that looks like. You know what you probably did is you probably had a different load and you had a different hip timing and you, all of these things that. I could study on video as a coach of what you did to open up the angle. If I told you to do that, you could never do that as fast as when you just pretended. And we'd all did that as kids, right? Yeah. I pandered my pitching motion after No, Nolan Ryan, because he was my guy and I watched him play all the time. So then I'd go back and I try to look just like him. So like I had this picture of what he looked like. So I tried to look just like him. I didn't ever watch myself do it, but then all of a sudden you're like, oh yeah, you pitched like Nolan Ryan. Yeah. Well, I, I don't like, I, yeah, yeah. A wine, but I think there's something to that. Every kid does that. We sit on the playground and we imagine that word Michael Jordan or Colby Bryant or Nolan Ryan, or, except for Leon Dry Seidel. Did you see that? They asked him. It was like, Hey, when you were playing as a kid in the Stanley Cup, like, who'd you imagine you, you were. And he's like me. The most German response ever. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. I always thought I was Gretzky shooting in the Stanley Cup final.

Mathias 1:48:44

Yeah, I think that's probably an under underutilized, uh, tool coaching. Yeah. And, and for athletes. Hmm. But the video one is really interesting. Yeah, I can to, I can totally see how that would be beneficial watching someone else do it. And then you're getting your reps like, look at the tv, do it like that. Um,

Ben 1:49:06

yeah, hundred percent. It's the comparison. This is all spawned from that. So in the comp compare, we don't wanna compare. You to mm-hmm. We want to model and steal his strength like you are you and you have your style, but right now he's the best in the world at creating rotation, timing and energy. Maybe. But let, let's assume, so that's what we believe. So then if we have you modeling after that and, and, and in coach, now we're talking about coach mechanics, like first we have to get you to understand and believe that that is something that you want to do. And then I have to, we have to come to the agreement that this is the model of what we believe it looks like. And once we have that foundation of belief, then I think you'll take in that information. Like you wanted to hit her cross court. So you chose a guy you thought was a great cross court hitter. He didn't model after, I don't know Big D. Yeah. I mean he's a pretty good cross court. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eric. So, right. So I think that's, no offense, big D, but the, I think that's the, uh, the idea of, um, the other thing they said this weekend and I thought was brilliant is like to be before you can be a great coach, you have to be a great salesman. And athletes have to believe in what you're selling before they'll actually believe in the product. So. Um, just like a salesman, like they'll never know if it's a good product unless they bought it. So how do we get you to believe that this is the right thing? Now, that's partially our relationship. That's history. That's whatever. And so if you believe that I've giving you something that's valuable, you're willing to try it. And then the second part is, we talked about earlier, is that if you believe that we're not gonna force something that doesn't work, then you're gonna be more willing to try it. Just like all the double pipe crazy stuff. Yeah. Did, Hey boy, just try this. Like, well, is this what we're doing? It's like, no, we're just screwing around and'cause we screwed around and with enough things, you guys do it. If it doesn't work, we ain't deal it, so let's just try it. Whereas sometimes with athletes, I've been coaching, you'll, Hey, I want you just to hit cross court for a bit. They're like, so I have to hit cross court now? Like, no, no, no. Just for this activity, I'm constraining like, I think learning constraint led approaches teach a lot of cool things, but I think a lot of athletes will grab onto, although you told me hit cross now. No, no, no. That was for 10 minutes. Like, yeah, what'd you learn? And I just don't, I think that explorative constraint style is just foreign to the players here. Like when we play fungi, it is wild. Like they, they're getting better. So they'll start to figure out the hack, but then the first time they have success, they grab on and that's what they try every time. The experimentation stops. Hmm. At first they want you to tell'em what to do. So for instance, if you're gonna play into the net and you get the fourth touch and you can spike the moment they play into the net. So sometimes they'll play into the net on third touch and knock it over on fourth, and then they wanna point, then that team, that's what they do. Another team played into second touch and then played it out. And then the third team played into the net and used the kick tool to set. But no team learned from the other team. They just stayed with their method the whole time. It was like this kind of self experiment, like, oh one, you figured out what worked for you, you didn't, you stopped trying something else as opposed to that worked. But is there a better way? Yeah. There a better way. And this idea of tinkering is just not natural to the teams I've coached here. Right. Like in just even, uh, like us uh, development groups, like you could just watch. They just, it's this immediate performance feedback. Like the moment something works, that's what we're doing. Do.

Mathias 1:53:09

That's interesting. Yeah. I was thinking about, um, this is going way back, but even like your performance mindset in big moments, like it's, I think it's so tough to continue experimenting'cause your sample size is so small, right? For sure. Like, I got to play in two national championships. I tried one thing in one and lost, tried a different thing, another in one. So now it's like, okay, so this doesn't work and this works. And then just like, just sticking with that because the next time I get to play in a final could be like a year later or years later. So it's unfortunate, but I love that in, in practice, just like,

Oog 1:53:47

yeah,

Mathias 1:53:47

iteration thinking like where can we go? And if it's principled at the same time, then that's absolutely, that's a gold mine.

Ben 1:53:54

Well, and I think your, your national champion example is a linear example, and I don't think it's linear. Hmm. I think it was, it's like a pyramid. So you tried this, it didn't work, you tried this. All right. So then we reduced some of the variables. We learned that things don't work, so now this is the range of what could work. You chose this, so try that again. All of a sudden, and it worked again. It's like, oh, now you refined, oh these, that it's like a process of elimination. To your point, until you have enough sample size to really eliminate the variables, you won't actually know what worked. Yeah. You just know that worked versus these things. Right. And then you have the contextual differences, like being defend, you know, defending versus being, after coming off a silver, you know, having me and my last season versus Adam in his first season. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. There's too much there. Totally. So again, all that's the, the cool part of what we do is there's just so much to think about and almost none of it. It's concrete.

Mathias 1:54:57

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Um, all righty, let's go. Last question here. Okay. This has been awesome. Um, pretty basic. What would be your advice to your younger self?

Ben 1:55:23

Man? So many good ones. I think we talked about. Good. I think I, I wish I did better at that the whole time. Just, I also would say, Hey, it's gonna work out. Like don't, don't take it that hard. Um, I also say I think the biggest thing that I wished I did better, quicker, and still struggle with is crystallizing thoughts. Um, I think a strength of mine, I believe is when I have an idea, I'll go with it pretty quick, because there's just not a lot of time sometimes like you, you just, you go. But then using our curiosity conversation, just'cause we went with it, doesn't mean it was right.

Oog 1:56:20

Hmm.

Ben 1:56:21

But sometimes like to your, to your point about the national, it's like, I. All of a sudden I believe that this is the way it should be done because it worked as opposed to, you know, that worked in this context this time. So hold loosely to it. It still might be right, but not because it worked. It still might be right because it worked, it will work for this player and it will work in this context. And I think

Mathias 1:56:46

it's like the, the Calgary float serving one applying to Brazil

Ben 1:56:50

100%. And I just think I've made that mistake over and over and over and over with players and teams and skills and, um, I just think, and, and I just think it's normal human nature. You find some success and you try to repeat the model. Like look at movies. I mean, yeah, top Gun just remade the exact same movie. Yeah, it was awesome. I loved it. But I think that doesn't work for your volleyball team. You can't reproduce the same thing. The principles guide the decisions and stay rooted in what you believe, but then making like constantly evolving and attaching what you're doing to the principles from the context. And that's really where the great coaches have survived the longest. Um, I really wish I didn't crystallize thoughts as quickly as I did. Hmm. And still do and still struggle with it. Awesome. How would you, tell me you,

Mathias 1:57:47

what's your answer to that advice to younger self? I, I, I really wish that I had learned earlier to enjoy the game. Hmm. That's one of the, the saddest parts for me about not being able to play anymore, is that I really like, I had the most fun playing volleyball of my entire life for like a year and a half right at the end. And I think I've found something where, yeah, just like an appreciation for the competition and the pressure and the, the potential of, of losing going all in emotionally. Like, I really started to love that. And, uh, yeah. Had I found a little bit more of that, like through all of my club years and all of my uni university years, I think I would've, I had such a good time, but I think I just, it would've been over the moon, I think with, if I could have found that earlier. Cool. Yeah. All right. Push for you then.

Ben 1:58:51

What would be your advice to me as a young coach? Knowing what you know about me and my coaching. Yeah. What would you advise me as a young coach?

Mathias 1:59:05

From my experience playing? Yeah. With you or your experience. Oh, from my Oh, oh, I see. I see it. I see what you're saying.

Ben 1:59:14

Yeah.

Mathias 1:59:20

Like how would you have helped me find that earlier? Is that what you're asking? Oh,

Ben 1:59:25

nope. But I like anything, let's leave it open to your interpretation.

Mathias 1:59:31

Okay. Well, in my situation, I don't think anyone could have taught me anything that would help me. I think it was self discovery and failing. Like we talked about battle scars, working through it. Some, some people probably had influence on me and helped me work through it, but I think it's, the unfortunate part is that a lot of those things have to be self discovery and have to be learned through sucking. So that one, I'm not sure, but advice for you.

Ben 2:00:10

Like how could I have coached you better?

Mathias 2:00:13

Mm.

Ben 2:00:16

Or your teams.

Mathias 2:00:27

I don't know. I, I think I came in like, I probably had less confidence than most people think, thought.

Oog 2:00:38

Mm-hmm.

Mathias 2:00:40

Maybe that was clear. Yeah. But no. Okay. Yeah, sure. I probably had less confidence than most people thought. And, uh, it's like a slap in the face when you come in, in your first year learning the system, especially as a setter, understanding how to run an offense. I didn't even know what that meant really. And well, I remember one time quite clearly in my second year, you were getting, getting on me about taking ownership for my offense. And I was like, I don't even know, like, what to do. Um, and I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Which I don't think was a mistake. Like, again, I think it was me, like a self-discovery process for me to learn how to take in the information that you had been telling me the whole time. And like, maybe, maybe you could have dumbed it down for me and like, like started like at the most basic level. But again, I think it was just, I just had to grow up a bit, get a little bit tougher, think a little bit more clearly. I'm not sure.

Ben 2:01:52

Well, here's a good coaching lesson than that. Kind of was revealed through that answer. Um, the reason, one of the reasons you're special is because of the amount of personal ownership you've taken in all of those answers. I needed to fail. I needed to be more aware. I needed to be more attentive to what you were saying. I needed to uptake more information. I think that personal accountability or extreme ownership, Jocko calls it in his book, you're owning your Gaps and that's a high level trait. Not every athlete will look at it like that. Those same answers. If we flip the script on a different athlete, if I asked that question, they're like, you didn't teach me the of offense well enough. How can I have ownership of something you didn't teach me? Or, you know, we lost because you didn't prepare us well enough. Coaches weren't behind us. Like there are athletes even on our teams that have elements of that, those thoughts on that 22 team, I guarantee you there are athletes who would probably have those thoughts somewhere in their head at some degree, maybe not like it was a coach's fault. Yeah, I don't think anyone's like that, but I do think there's some that's like, yeah, coach should have made that sub, or we shouldn't have done that, or we should have started this rotation, or, wow, that time out was late or that was on coach, right? Like I guarantee you there's some of those thoughts in some of the heads and that doesn't mean it's wrong. But the fact that your answer went super extreme. Ownership is a great trait, but I don't think everyone thinks like that.

Oog 2:03:26

Hmm.

Ben 2:03:28

So I think that,

Oog 2:03:28

yeah,

Ben 2:03:29

those things that makes you successful. But I also think it's important to understand that some athletes aren't gonna look at it like that. I also think those athletes tend to not survive very long.

Mathias 2:03:40

Yeah. It's like, why would you want someone else to be responsible for who you are and what you can do? Like even if they are, even if the coaches are ruining you, like just, that's not helpful, that's zero value in thinking that way.

Ben 2:03:57

Well think about some of the European stories we hear from pro. Like, I can't hit off that setter. All of a sudden now they've got a new setter, like,

Mathias 2:04:07

right, right.

Ben 2:04:08

Just because that guy can't hit. Like if you're good, you can hit off any setter. But I think like you hear those stories or you hear, you know, a guy doesn't steal a couple balls in the center's. Like, that guy kick sucks. Get him outta here. Hmm. Like you're blaming that guy for a bad set. So I just think it's important to have that ownership piece. I love that answer for you. Yeah. Now it doesn't help me as a coach. I'm not better because you just blamed yourself, but Yeah.

Mathias 2:04:39

Yeah. Well, we talked about this the other day. It was like, what percentage of a of a player's improvement is. Uh, happens because of the coach and what percentage happens because of the player. And as a player, I used to think it was like 90 10, like my, I was responsible for my own improvement and then, then as a coach I was like, ah, man, it's like 90 10 the other way. Like, I can make these guys better. Um, prob yeah. That's probably just the way I think, but I think it's, I'd still think the athlete is just like, so, so important.'cause you can tell'em whatever you want as many times as you want, but if it's what they do with it, that's really important at the end of the day.

Ben 2:05:23

So I love my marriage. I think Jen and I have a great thing going and it's because we both try really hard.

Oog 2:05:30

Hmm.

Ben 2:05:30

And I think that's kind of the, the whole deal, to your point, I think if the coach tries really, really hard to do well for the athlete, and the athlete tries really, really hard to learn in the environment, then I think you got something good going on. And I think everything else is semantics of who's responsible for what. It's like your job is to be a great learner. My job is to create a great learning environment and challenge you, and then learning happens. Mm-hmm. It's nobody's responsibility. It's the job. Like Right. You know, it's my job to direct attention to lessons that you don't know. It's your job to un understand what your upgrades are internally. Like we both identify our gaps and then we both. To the old environment to get better and refine and refine. And I think that's, yeah. Now you're in the coaching context, so your brain sees it from, there was a player you saw from there, and I think those are both really healthy. Yeah. But it's important to take another step up and realize that it's collective responsibility to the learning and upgrading of the whole group. Yeah. What is your part in it? Uh, again, I wouldn't judge it. Your job is to, to learn and to make yourself better and your teammate better. That's the job. Like everything else is like, who cares what percentage it is, right? Yeah. Better like learn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Better at learning. Yeah. My job is to considered teaching and coaching and at some point, you know, we're gonna win a loses and that's gonna be our determination of how well we did. That's the cool part of sport too, right? Every Friday night you get an evaluation on how you did. Right? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Not a great week.

Oog 2:07:08

Yeah,

Ben 2:07:09

I had a great month, but cool part is long. And this back to our first convo. As long as there's another game, you got a chance to upgrade and try again. The finality of it, and you talked about this in one of your pods, but just the finality of that, of the loss of the season sucks. Like there's no practice on Monday. Like, I can't make up and I don't get another shot. I mean, and that's one that, you know, you guys brought up. It's like that was my last game coaching Trinity, and I never get a chance to make up for that. That is the, you know, and I feel the same with Canada. Like I don't love the way that went. Mm-hmm. And I never get a chance to try to upgrade it. But that's the finality of things. And so the lesson of that is then good. Then make sure you're making the most of your opportunities to your earlier. Like make sure you enjoy playing while you can. Enjoy that team while it's on your, while it's the team. Enjoy. Just here you are, you don't get to play. Yeah. Wish you played. Had more fun when you did. Yeah.

Mathias 2:08:09

Again, zero value in rumination and regret. Yeah. Like I just don't even let myself go there. Totally. And you use it obviously to influence and correct impact the way that you go about things now, but Correct. Hoping you're wishing you could change stuff. Just absolutely no value.

Ben 2:08:29

No, for sure. But that's the But I'm not gonna make that mistake again.

Mathias 2:08:33

Yeah, right.

Ben 2:08:34

You know, that's right. From 2010 lesson like, nah, that I want that back, but that's just how it works. And if I didn't learn that, we may don't win in 11. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So I also don't think it works like that. Like I don't, I don't know like what is it? Uh, like destinations or whatever like that it first doors, like if one thing to happen different, this is what it looked like. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Like this, this happened, we responded like this and I'm happy with our response this happened. And we respond like hap like. I just think it's really, really important to make sure that, that good, good. This is what happened. Good. So this is where we're gonna be. Yeah,

Mathias 2:09:20

absolutely. Already, Ben, unreal. That was, that was so much fun. We'll have to bring you back on. There's probably so much more we can talk about, but that's, uh, that's probably our longest pod yet by an hour. But that's great. Thats what the most, most of it you're gonna have to edit out. No, no, no. It's amazing. This is what, this is what the people wanted. So, uh, thanks so much for coming on. Its great to see you again.

Ben 2:09:46

Yeah. Love lot miss you. Yeah, love you too, miss you.

Mathias 2:09:50

I think that wraps up episode number 38 of the Pitch Pro podcast. Thanks everyone for listening. 38 sign off. That's your favorite number.

Ben 2:10:00

Unreal.

Mathias 2:10:01

Let's go

2:10:03

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