Episode #37 - Anna Dunn's Story

Episode  #37 - Anna Dunn’s Story

(00:00 - 01:09) It is hard to describe the first half of this episode in words that do it justice. Anna talks about the hills and valleys she went through during her battle with cancer, her reaction when she found out she needed to get her lower leg amputated, and the terrible side effects of chemotherapy. She shares what, and who, kept her going through those tough times, and the effect someones support can have on your life. 

(01:09 - End) The second half of the episode we discuss her first few months as a Sitting Volleyball player, the challenges that come with serving, setting, and understanding rotations. We talk about the major differences between Soccer and Volleyball, and Anna shares the lessons she has learned from playing both.

All proceeds from the Pit2Pro Merch sales for the month of June will be entirely donated to the Canada's National Womans Sitting Volleyball Team. Go check them out on our website.

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome back everyone to the Pit to Pro Podcast for the month of June, all proceeds from Pit Pro Merch sales are gonna go to the National Women's Sitting Volleyball team. So head over to pit to pro.com and grab yourself some merch and support our Canadian para athletes. Today's episode we're drawn by Anna Dunn. Anna is a former youth sports first team, all Canadian soccer player, and is now a member of the National Women's Sitting Volleyball Team. Expect to learn the ins and outs of Anna's battle with Cancer, how you can be the reason someone decides to keep fighting the unique challenges of picking up a new sport at 26. How outside perspective and curiosity can accelerate growth and learning what makes volleyball fun and frustrating to a newcomer as well as the power of yet.

Mathias 0:37

Before we get started, I'd like to introduce our sponsor for today's episode.

Jesse 0:42

Most sports have designated coaches for the most important movements. Basketball players have shooting coaches, baseball players have batting coaches, and golfers have swing coaches.

Mathias 0:50

Now for the first time we have a specific coach for one of the most important movements in volleyball.

Jesse 0:55

If you use code ARMSWING50 at checkout, you'll instantly get 50 percent off your first month of the Arm Swing Academy.

Mathias 1:01

once you're inside the app, you can upload a video of your arm swing, then you'll get personalized feedback direct from Nick Delbianco. He'll give you some tips on how your arm swing is looking, Then you get some on court exercises to lock in the new patterns and even a specific weight room program to help you spike harder and play pain free.

Jesse 1:19

If you're not sold yet and you just want to test it out, all you gotta do is follow the link in the description of this episode or our Instagram bio and sign up for the 7 day free trial. Then use code ARMSWING50 at checkout and get 50 percent off the first month after the trial.

1:35

But now ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Anna Dunn. Hello and welcome to the Pit the Pro podcast. Jesse, Matthias, and Aaron Elson. This podcast is meant to guide young athletes on their journey to high performance. Join us as we share our first hand experiences in an effort to help you reach your own valuable goals.

Mathias 1:57

Alrighty. Welcome back everyone to the Pits of Pro Podcast. Today is episode number 37, is that right?

Jesse 2:07

You wanna redo that?

Mathias 2:10

What

Jesse 2:10

episode is it?

Mathias 2:14

I think it is 37. Ah, we'll keep that in episode number 37. Everyone. Welcome here. Today we're joined by Anna Dunn, very special guest. We're excited to learn her story. Anna, welcome to the show.

Anna 2:27

Thanks for having me.

Jesse 2:29

Yeah, this is super special. Super special because now, um, you're playing the sport that, that me and my brothers love, which is super fun. And, um, you and I have known each other for a long time. We had a lot of education classes together. Um, so this is, it is cool for me too to, to learn your story'cause we haven't. I talked in a long time. Um, mm-hmm. I wanna start off by talking about perspective. I imagine that, um, the last three years as a whole has changed your perspective on many things, and I would love to kind of dive into that. Can you give

Mathias 3:12

us a quick rundown of the last couple years of your life before that so people understand where, where that perspective's coming from?

Anna 3:19

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, not a, not a ball or ball player now, now a sitting volleyball player, but, um, I played soccer all my life. Um, I actually met, met these two at Trinity, um, when I played for the Spartans. And, uh, yeah, just a very successful soccer career. I wasn't, I wasn't keen on going pro right after I had, um, finished my time at Trinity, but was hoping when this Canadian league was made that, oh, I'd be ready for that. And, you know, this year, but, um, as you'll learn, uh, my life changed very drastically. And, uh, yeah, life doesn't go according to plan. And I'm just gonna give you some good examples of my life and how it didn't go according to, so you just want me to, you want me to tell my start off?

Mathias 4:20

Yeah. Take us back to, um, just after your, your time at Trinity there, and then, uh, when you were diagnosed with your cancer and, and what happened following that

Anna 4:34

Wait. Um, so I kind of, I have my notes to the side here, just to let you know'cause I honestly have a hard time remembering everything that happened because it's just like a blur. Um, but yeah, so if you see me look off to the side,'cause I have my notes there just to

Mathias 4:50

keep Yeah, no problem.

Anna 4:52

Um, so discovering I had cancer, so I was experiencing this on and off again, pain in my right big toe in the 2021 season, um, at Trinity. And so it was very infrequent pain. I wasn't concerned, you know, we're athletes, we play through pain, it's just typical. Um, but the pain became more frequent and more severe in the 2022 season. So that was my last season at Trinity. But still everyone, including myself, was treating it as if it was like a sports related injury. Um. But by the time this season ended, I couldn't walk on it. It was so painful. And, uh, I was sent for an x-ray and that came back clear. So again, just we didn't know. I'm still thinking I have, I don't know, like a bone fracture or something's going on. It's not, cancer's not popping in my head because why, why would I have cancer? Um, so I moved back home to Edmonton for Oilers. No, we cutting. We're cutting that out for sure. You cut that out. I was actually gonna wear an Oilers top, but I didn't because of you guys, so You're welcome. So you gotta keep that in.

Jesse 6:13

We appreciate that. We appreciate

Anna 6:14

that. Yeah, you're welcome. So yeah, anyway, I moved home and the pain was continually getting worse. Worse. And um, so I reached out to a sports medicine doctor who is actually a family friend, um, of my family. So her name is Dr. Marni Wesner, um, through the Glen Sader Sports Medicine Clinic. And she looked at my foot. It was really like the, in, I'm trying to say like if this was my foot and this was my big toe. Um, the inside of my arch was really swollen and puffy. And then the knuckle of my big toe was also like very swollen and um. So she took a look at it and thought something strange was going, going on. This was not a typical sport injury, so she sent me for various tests. So I had, um, a bone scan, came back clear an MRI, and that's when they were like, oh, suggested to get a biopsy. And still I'm like, what is this? Like whatever called my biopsy. And um, the results came back and that's when I discovered I had a rare form of cancer called Ewing sarcoma. Um, so this is like a bone and soft tissue cancer. And from the research that I've done in my family has done about it, like we don't know the causes of what, what made this happen. Um, and for me it's really rare, like it's a really rare cancer in general, but it's um, very rare for IH group. Like if anyone were to get it, it's typically children and teens. So yeah. I think I was 23 at the time. Um, and yeah, just discovering I have cancer. So, um, I called Dr. Wener who explained the results and she kinda went through everything, what this means, and kind of warned me, like, worst case scenario, worst, I mean, worst case scenario is dying. But, um, for me, worst case scenario was an amputation. And I just remember on that phone call, like she was like, yeah, you might have to get your foot amputated. And I just like lost it because as a soccer player, not having a foot is a little bit of a problem. Um, so I just like, I was honestly just kind of stuck in this state of shock and denial. I was like, there's no, this is wrong, this biopsy's wrong. Everybody's wrong, there's not a chance. Um, and then days later I was. Meeting with my oncologist and learning about my treatment plan. So it was like a very quick turnaround because of like, the cancer that I had had, I don't have anymore had, um, it's very aggressive. And me being young, they were like, okay, this is a life that you can, we can save. Not just like a maintenance of, oh, you're always gonna have this cancer, but we can keep, you know, keep your life going. It was okay, let's get rid of this cancer. So thankful for that. Um, but yeah, at this point, this is where my world turned completely upside down. So I had a port inserted into my chest, like, I can't even show you guys. Mark, uh, there. So that's where the port went. And then like, I have another mark up here. You can't really see it, but what they do is, I remember getting this in. This was my first like mini surgery and um, they freeze you. And then she like showed me the part, it's like a little, it looks like a button. And then it has like this, it looks like a cord going up it. And um, basically they freeze you up and they, they drape this curtain over you so you can't see what's going on. Uh, thank goodness. Um, and then, so there's a nurse by my head kind of talking to me and she's like, okay, like everything's good. We're all calm, like trying to keep me calm. Meanwhile, I can hear the doctor and the nurse on the other side who are doing, doing all the things to my, um, my scan, cutting me open and sticking this thing up. My, uh, up one of my main arteries. And so I just remember being in there and I was like, what is going on? It was the strangest thing. Um, but yeah, successful didn't hurt, you know, the other side, I actually, it's a fine story. At the end when I had to get it taken out, um, they showed me it and they were like, do you wanna keep this? And I was like, no, no, I don't wanna keep that. Thanks. You can keep it.

Jesse 10:56

Um, yeah. Well you remember, you remember Pierce Chenko? Yeah.

Anna 11:00

Yeah.

Jesse 11:01

He has his shin, like whatever. He has got a long piece of iron in his shin for a long time and now it's a bracelet. You got like,

Anna 11:12

sorry, I, I guess I should have kept it to make it into a bracelet

Jesse 11:16

or a necklace. Like those nice little necklace. That'd be cool.

Anna 11:19

Regrets. Should have been better. Sorry guys. Um, but yeah, and then I had to take, um, it was like required to take a chemo class before I started chemo and it basically, this class just told you about all the awful things that were gonna happen to you being on chemo. So really positive meeting. Um, and then, uh, this was kind of, um, two days before I started my chemo, I decided to shave my head and, um. This was like, uh, just like so incredibly difficult, um, and just a massive loss of identity. Um, I don't know how it is with people with short hair, but at least like for me with long hair, um, it was like part of who I was. It was something that made me feel confident. It made me feel myself. And so like shaving, it was like a really traumatic experience. Um, like I remember going to my, um, hairdresser's house. Thankfully she did it at her house and not at the salon. And so went to her house and I couldn't even, like, I just couldn't look up. Like, I just kept my eyes shut. I looked down and, you know, I'm crying the whole time. My sister and my mom are there just holding my hand and I'm crying the whole time. And she's like, okay, we're done. And you know, like I, I couldn't even look at myself in the mirror like I. I just looked at the ground and like could see my hair like everywhere. And, uh, sorry, it's hard for me to say this, but Yeah. Like, just like seeing that and you're like, oh my gosh. Like this is real. Um, so yeah, it was, it seems funny because you're like, oh, it's hair. But like, um, as someone who really identified with their long hair, um, it was like, yeah, just a very traumatic experience. But the reason I did it was because I wanted to take a, a control, like control of a situation that I had such little control of. Um, and I knew it would be so much more traumatizing for me if I'm getting my chemo done. I, I go to bed one night and I wake up and there's just like chunks of my hair on the pillow. So for me, it was me taking control and, um, I'm really glad I did it in the end, but as you can tell in my voice, it's, uh, it's something that was really hard for me. Um, so yeah, moving on to where my treatment began. We, we really appreciate sharing this. You wanna talk about that?

Jesse 13:55

Yeah. No, I think this is awesome. I just wanna say it's, it's really, um, you, you gotta be really brave to share stories like that. And I, I know we're not done, we just started, but just wanted to say it's, it's a safe place and we really appreciate you sharing with us. It's cool.

Mathias 14:09

Yeah. Anna, you got me tearing up a little bit there. That was, yeah, I got, that was powerful.

Anna 14:13

Oh. Oh gosh. You guys don't say that. you're not crying. I'm not crying. We're gonna make it through this. Yeah. Um, okay. So, um, now chemo treatment starts, so from the moment that I was diagnosed. Um, to my treatment. It was only three weeks until I started. And, um, so very quick turnaround. And basically if, if the cancer was left untreated, it would've killed me. So it was, we need to get this done, we need to start now. Um, so the chemo treatment was administered here in Edmonton at the Cross Cancer Institute, and it's like, it's this world class facility for, um, treating cancer. And luckily, I, I only live 12 minutes away from it, so I consider myself so lucky in a time where it felt like I just was getting smacked by the unlucky stick. Um, that was something where I was like, oh, it's a positive. I. So I'm really thankful for that. So yeah, moving on to my, my chemo treatment plan. Um, so I had 14 rounds of two types of IV chemotherapy scheduled every two weeks. Um, so the first one, it's nicknamed The Red Devil, and that one was for four hours, just one day. And so it's, it's nicknamed the Red Devil because it has this bright red color and um, it has extremely severe side effects. So yeah, first hearing that I was like, let's go Red Devil. All right. Um, and then yeah, I would have the two weeks off to from my body to recover as best as it could from that first one. And then the second chemo, I don't remember the name of it, but it wasn't as harsh physically, but I would say much more. Uh, I had a much more. A bigger impact on me mentally. And so this one was eight hours a day, three days. So eight hours of first day, eight hours a second day, eight hours of third day. And then you go, you go on.

Mathias 16:32

Wow.

Anna 16:32

Um,

Mathias 16:33

what, what, can you, can you explain what chemotherapy actually does? Like they're running an IV of something through your bloodstream trying to kill the cancer, and what does it feel like when you're there for eight hours on this iv?

Anna 16:54

Um, so yeah, basically chemo is just, it. It kills not only the bad cells, but it kills the good cells. It kills all your cells because cancer is a fast growing cell. Um, so it kills all your fast growing cells. And, um, so I had my port, so got inserted through there, so every time they would stick like a needle. In my chest and like, you know, painful for one second and then you're fine. And by the time, by the end of it, I was like, I had so many needles, I was like, yeah, whatever, just, just stab me. It's fine. Um, but I mean, you don't feel anything when it's going in. It's just, you see the bag, you see the big bag of like the chemo drug and it's just going into you and you're, you know, you're just hanging out there. Like, most of the time when I was at chemo, I would be like coloring, um, like, you know, those adult coloring books. I'd be doing those. Or I would be watching movies or TV with my parents'cause they came to every single chemo session. And um, you know, just like those kind of things. Something to keep me busy the best we could. Card games, whatever. Um, yeah. Does that answer your question?

Mathias 18:14

Yeah. Yeah, because I know that chemo's like really hard, right? You hear that all the time that like mm-hmm. It's difficult on people and on their bodies when they're going through chemo. And I'm wondering like if it's during the, during the process or is it, is it more like the recovery after?

Anna 18:32

Um, so for the Red Devil one, I felt fine. The, like, the whole time felt fine that rest of that day. And then day two it hits you. Um, versus like the, the one that was three days for eight hours after the first day, I was already feeling it the second day. And by the third day I was like a zombie.

Mathias 18:54

Yeah. And, and it's probably tough to describe, but'cause it's just killing like cells from inside your body. Yeah. I like what, what does that feel like?

Anna 19:04

Um, well, do you want me to, I can share the side effects of treatment that answers your question. Um, so. Um, physical side effects that I experienced. Again, it's not for everybody, um, but I was like really fatigued after. So like, I would spend usually the second and third day after my chemo, uh, treatment was done. I would spend like the entire day slipping.'cause I was just, I couldn't, I couldn't get up or I would just, I'd have the TV on, but I wasn't even watching TV because I, like, things weren't processing in my brain. I was just so physically and mentally tired that I couldn't focus. Um, so fatigue was a big one. You guys are gonna laugh, but like constipation, that's a big one. So you've gotta take, um, they don't tell you this at the start in my chemo class, which I was really mad about. But like, you've gotta be taking some laxative to help you, help you get the body moving and you're not eating a ton of food anyway, so, yeah. Really key to take some laxatives, um, and then hair loss of course. But that was not a problem for me since I shaved my head. Um, lack of appetite. That's a big one. Um, especially for the first, like you follow like this classic chemo cycle and it's, you know, you have your chemo, you're up here and it goes down and then you're like slowly come back up and then as soon as you're at the top, they hit you with another round and you go back down. So it's just over and over and over again. Um, so yeah, I would usually get my appetite back, I wanna say by the fifth day. Um, and before that I'm eating crackers. I'm eating like apples sometimes if I can, you know, keep that down, like, yeah, just very basic foods. Um. And then you can, you get mouth sores. I only experienced mouth sores twice, but they're horrible. They're just like, they're in your mouth. And, um, it makes eating hard and drinking hard, like it's painful in your mouth. So that was brutal. Uh, thankfully it only had those twice. And then, um, just overall body pain, like your body is just aching all the time. Like, I, I don't know how to better explain it other than that. Like, it just hurts. It hurts to move and like you just, you don't wanna move. Um, then something I never experienced. I'm super lucky that I never vomited when I was on my chemo, which is like super rare. Um, but I never vomited, so thank the lord that that didn't happen to me. But definitely I experienced nausea. Um. Weight gain. Like for me, that was another thing for identity that was really hard. At the end of my chemo, I weighed 40 pounds more than I weighed before. Like it's just, it's nuts. Um, and that's due to the drugs that you're taking to help combat the chemo side effects. And then, um, the big one is fever. So with my type of chemo, I'm not sure, again, I can't speak for other types of chemo, but if I ever had a fever it was immediately, you're going to the emergency room. And I was, I don't know, I was admitted five or six times due to fever. And um, I will just say like, I'm, I won't talk about my ER experiences'cause they're brutal. But yeah, it's just not a fun place to be and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Of course, we don't wanna go to the er. Um. Uh, what else? Uh, okay, so like mentally and emotionally, um, you get like, I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's chemo brain or like brain fog, and that's when you kind of have, um, it's memory problems. So like, I couldn't remember, I don't know, very basic things like what had happened the last day. Like what, what day of chemo was I on? I couldn't remember those things. Um, trouble concentrating and focusing again, that kind of like, of course I was fatigued. I just, yeah. So I, brain fog was a big one for me. Um, stress, loneliness, anxiety, hopelessness, depression, the, the whole thing. There you go. You get those. And, um, I actually have a funny story about chemo drugs with my, uh, oncologist. So, uh, this was like three or four rounds into my chemotherapy. And I was like, I was severely depressed. And like, it just, it felt more than just depression from like, from chemo. I was like, something's not right. I don't know what's going on. And I was like, I need to talk to Mycologist about, because this isn't normal, even though what is normal when you're on chemo, but I'm, yeah, it just, it wasn't like, right. And so I talked to her and I was like, what is going on? I'm just, I'm so depressed. I'm so like sad all the time. And she, she has obviously hundreds of patients and she's like, oh, what, um, what chemo drugs do you on, like to help combat them, like my medications. And so there were like four main ones, but as soon as I say the one, this one, she's like, oh yeah, that one cause causes psychosis. And I was like, oh. Good to know. So in case you don't know what psychosis is, it's basically you have like a loss of reality and it's just Yeah. I was having basically psychotic episodes constantly, and I didn't know what was causing them until I, yeah. My, my oncologist decided to share with me that this chemo drug causes psychosis, so

Jesse 25:09

That's wild. Yeah. And did, did they purposefully not tell you, or is it just like you were on so many drugs and so many appointments that it got kind of slipped through the cracks?

Anna 25:19

Yeah, I think it just, like, yeah, it slipped through the cracks. Like, I think it, it wasn't for the purpose of, you know, you shouldn't know this. Yeah. It was, oh, I forgot to tell you.

Jesse 25:31

Seems like a big piece of information that shouldn't be slipped through the cracks.

Anna 25:35

Yeah, that's what I, mm-hmm. I totally agree with you on that. It's brutal.

Jesse 25:41

Wow. Okay. I have so many thoughts and questions, but let's finish the journey and then we'll get into them. Yeah.

Anna 25:47

Okay. I will try and get through there. Um, okay. Uh, I lived in isolation for a year, so it was like basically me going back to like COVID-19 protocols, so no one was allowed to come visit me at my house. Other than obviously my mom, my dad, my sister and her boyfriend now fiance, um, were the only people that could come over and visit me. Um, and I also was so depressed that I didn't wanna talk to people over the phone, so my friends would always be texting me like, how are you doing? Or wanting to FaceTime, and like, at that time I just, I didn't wanna talk to anyone. Like, life was so miserable for me that I just kind of had this whole like, social withdrawal because I just. I couldn't handle it. And kind of like another thing that I didn't want people to see me was because of the way I looked. So I was puffy. I had like this pale, sickly gross, yellow, white skin tone. Um, I had no hair. My eyebrows fell out. So like it wasn't looking good. So I didn't want anyone to see me like that. And then also kind of as a result of like my social withdrawal, I guess, is I deleted Instagram from my phone. Um, because I couldn't, I couldn't handle seeing good things happening to so many people. Um, so like, my friends are getting engaged, they're moving up in their work, they're traveling, they're moving out, they're, you know, spending time with one another. And I'm seeing this while I was like, I'm at rock bottom and I, this is what I'm seeing. So from my mental health, I was like, I need to delete this. So kind of went off of Instagram for Yeah, basically that year. Um, which was, it was good for me. Um, but yeah, it was hard'cause I missed out on a lot of like information. Like I feel like our generation shares so much information on Instagram and like those kind of social media platforms. So yeah, that kind of sucked. But it was good for me. Um, and then I was just constantly questioning like, I don't know if, you know, you have your viewers, I don't know if they believe in God, a higher power or whatever, but like, I believe in God. And so I was constantly questioning why did God do this to me? Like, did I do something wrong? Did I screw up? What did I do to deserve this to happen to me? And I just, I couldn't comprehend it. My logical brain kept thinking you've done something wrong to deserve this. And I. It's not like I've ever thought that about other people who have had cancer. I'm like, no, they didn't do anything to deserve it. But for me it was just, I couldn't wrap my head around the idea that sometimes bad things happen and it's just tough luck. Like I just, I couldn't wrap my head around it. And that definitely contributed to a lot of, um, depression. And ultimately I learned like, God didn't give me cancer, doesn't take away cancer, but he gives me the strength to fight it. So that was a kind of good outlook that I learned later, later on. Took me a while to get there. But, um, yeah, I learned that later on. And, um, again, during my treatment, I was constantly asking myself, why am I putting myself through this? Wouldn't it just be easier to stop the treatment and, you know, let cancer take me when it was my time? And it's just like I had those thoughts. Daily. And, um, you know, it's something very sad to think about is like, I was thinking about like, oh, like death would be better than doing this. Um, because it was so hard. Um, and I think that's when I really realized how much of an impact other people have on you and like how important relationships are. Um, because I would always respond by saying like, I can't leave my people. Like, I can't leave my sister, I can't leave my parents, I can't leave my family, I can't leave my friends. It would be unfair to them. And I don't wanna be the cause of sadness for their, any of their sadness. So, you know, we have like our intrinsic and our extrinsic motivation, all our sports psych stuff. I love sports psych. Um, and so I was, I. I motivated based on other people, like I was doing it for other people. I no longer had that intrinsic motivation, like, I'm doing this for myself to get better. No, it was about I'm doing this so that I can survive so that I don't cause sadness to the people around me. And this kind of got me thinking about how powerful an impact you can have on someone's life. Um, it's kind of crazy to say, but you, like you could be the reason that they keep fighting and keep living. And that's something like, it literally gives me like goosebumps when I say that. And it's kind of stuck with me ever since. And you know, you may not know and you may never know the impact you have on someone's life, but you could be the reason that someone keeps enduring or pushing through like their, their version of hell, um, even when they don't wanna fight anymore. So yeah, that's something that. Really, really stuck with me. Um, oh, that's beautiful. That's

Jesse 31:25

that. Oh, I also got goosebumps.

Anna 31:30

Good. I'm glad I'm here to cause uh, no. Um, and then, yeah, so I started to go to therapy'cause I couldn't cope on my own anymore. Um, therapy was such a game changer for me and I just wanna like, here's my like plug my own self plug here. But like, I encourage like anyone who's struggling psychologically or emotionally, like see, like go get professional help. It is, it is so important. Your mental health is so important and like as athletes, you, we struggle with mental issues ourselves, like performance issues, whatever it is. But yeah, I would just say get help, um, is my kind of summary. Uh. Can I move to my amputation?

Jesse 32:21

Let's do it.

Anna 32:22

Let's do it. Okay. So eight cycles into my chemo. I met with my oncologist and she said my tumor in my, um, big toe was responding really well to chemo and it was shrinking. So in my head I'm like, okay, like let's keep this chemo up. It's gonna be gone. Like I never had cancer. Um, I was informed that actually, uh, an amputation was required, so I met, um, my orthopedic surgeon, uh, his name's Dr. Paul Amazing. Love him. Um, and he took kind of, we went to, I remember going to. Forget what hospital he works at of, we went to the hospital with, I'm with my parents, thank goodness. They came to me with every, like, came with me to everything. Um, because I wasn't processing things at that time. Like I, I just, it just went in and over, like in and out, what your, you know. So, um, he kind of explained what an amputation would be like, told me my options. So I could either get like the, the big toe removed or like I was showing my foot like this, uh, I could get it up to like the ankle, so I still had like my ankle joints or I could get it from below the knee. And he said, based on my lifestyle. So I'm, I've always been like a very physically active person. The below the knee amputation was the best option, um, because prosthetics were so much better or below the knee versus ankle. So, um. We walked out of that meeting and surgery was planned for November 24th. And at this time, chemo was paused because I needed to have the, the ability to have like white blood cells'cause um, it kills off white blood cells. Shocker, it kills off everything. Um, I needed to have the white blood cells to help me fight, um, whatever was coming my way. So I just remember like being in the room, like when he's telling me about this and, you know, we look back, as I told you, like the first time I heard the word amputation, like I bawled, I freaked out, but I was so calm and unemotional and objective. And I think it was just because I was in shock and I wasn't fully processing it like an, an amputation. Why that, why, why me? And, um, so yeah, that was, I. Yeah, being in his office and I was just kind of there and my parents took notes. Thankfully we talked about it. And yeah, so it was decided November 24th would be the amputation date. So leading up to surgery, I kind of reflected on life and where I was a year ago. And I remember, you know, when I'm a university athlete, I just finished my last year in U sports. I was a teacher, I was a soccer player. Like all these things about my identity and how much had changed and it, it was just like shocking to me. And, um, yeah, it was, it was hard to think about leading up to that, that, um, that this was going to be happening. But the day of surgery came and. I was again, like driving in my car. I actually, like, I had to consult my parents a lot on like my notes because again, I forgot a lot of things that happened and they were there through it all. So, um, in the car, my mom and dad are driving me to the hospital and again, I was just like, like, kind of like, it was kind of creepy how calm and unemotional I was. I just, I was like, okay, we're doing this. And, um, so yeah, to the hospital, I check in, you know, you have to go through all the forms saying that like, you are consenting to having your leg amputated and all this stuff. And um, so the nurse, she, she gave me a sharpie, and this is where I'm kind of like, this is weird for the medical system, but I know they do this with any, um, kind of like operation. You need to get on your legs. I don't know about arms, whatever. But she was like, okay, yeah, like right, yes, on the leg that's getting amputated and no on the leg. That's not. And I'm like, I, dear God, I hope they know, I hope they know which leg they're operating on. Yeah. Um,'cause how root like wake up and it's actually in my left leg that's gone. And now it was my right leg that had to cancel all along. So yeah, that was, I just remember thinking, I was like, what the heck is going on? But, um, yeah, had to do that and then, you know, change it to the gown, whatever. Um, and then wheeled me into like, the pre-op room, just outside of the operating rooms. And so at this point it had set in and I just remember like I, my dad was holding my hand'cause my dad came with me. I could only have one person with me through the um, kind of check-in process. And so I'm like, I'm crying to my dad at this point. Um. I just like kept like repeating how like I, I don't wanna do this, I don't wanna do this, um, I can't do this. And, um, he just like held my hand and he kept like repeating like, something good will come of this and we don't know what it is yet, but like, something good will come. And, um, yeah, he just kept telling me that and, um, held my hand and, and then it was like about 10 minutes of that. And then, um, and then the, uh, nurse came in and come to get me and she wheeled me into the OR and, um, the surgery team, sorry. I'm good. The surgery team, um, like quickly introduced themselves. Great. Nice to meet everybody obviously the whole time. Um, and then the anesthesiologist, um, put. The mask over my face and like count down from 10. And I was like, in my head I'm like, hell no. Am I falling asleep? Like I'm getting up and I'm running outta here. And I think I made it to five and then I was out. Um, and then yeah, out and then waking up after surgery. Um, I remember just waking up in bed and, um, very groggy, whatever, you know, I'm on so many drugs, like so many pain medications, all this stuff. But like the first thing I asked my parents was like, I asked, is my leg on? And they responded, saying yes. And, um, sorry, that's another part that makes me a little emotional. Um, I kind of like took off the covers, um, of my right leg and just like, sorry.

Jesse 39:39

Yeah, take your time. Take your time.

Anna 39:45

Okay. Um, I take the covers off and I look down and my legs not there anymore. And, um, I wasn't crying like I am now. Um, I was just like very emotionless, motionless and just numb to it. And like, I mean, I always like hopped on a lot of drugs, so I don't think everything was registering, but, um, yeah, I just like kind of kept staring at it and it just, I don't know, I, it just was very hard to register. Um, so yeah, I stayed in the hospital recovering for about five days and then I was discharged. Um, and then, um, I experienced really bad phantom limb pain, so I. I try to explain it. It's hard to explain, um, unless you've experienced it, but, uh, yeah, I'll do my best here. Um, so phantom limb pain is basically when you feel pain in the body part, you no longer have because of your amputation. So me, my phantom limb pain was in my right, like below the knee. And so it's very real, it's very painful and like my best way of describing it is as if like someone is just electrocuting your leg over and constantly and it's just like, it's, it's so painful. I don't know how to say it any better, but that's, it feels like you're being electrocuted. And so, um, yeah, that was, uh, I, I'm happy to talk about that more, but, um, I wanna make sure we get through everything. So that was just another challenging part of my journey, is that one pain, um. And then, uh, kind of my wound healing, it actually took six months, um, due to the chemo, as I said, killing the good cells that were required for healing. So most people who get amputations and are not on chemo who have cancer, they recover much quicker. Like in, within, I wanna say like two months. I was six months. So I had like basically this open gash on the bottom of my leg where my leg used to be, um, for six months, which was like, just gross. But yeah. Here, you're here to tell the story, so we're good. Um, so my life kind of became like I'm crutching, I'm wheelchair. Um, I crutched around the house, wheelchair outside the house, and I have some funny stories now to tell, uh, share with you. Um, so we, Jamal was the place like. My dad would wheel me around West Ed, the whole top floor, the whole bottom floor, just basically for me to like waste, waste my time because days would go by so slow because I was just sitting at home. So, um, we have two funny stories from, uh, west Ed. Um, so the first one is, um, I had gotten like a disability badge by that time, uh, for parking, um, because I couldn't, you know, I couldn't walk. Um, I was in a chair. Um, so we got a disability badge and so we're driving and we're, we get to the mall and we're going to like our usual disabled spot and there's this truck in the spot, but it's actually taking up two spots. And like my dad is livid and I'm like, oh my gosh, dad, it's fine. Like, just park further down wh turn me in. It's not a big deal. Like I just don't wanna make it a big deal out of it. Whatever. And so we park further down. He has a wheelchair in me and we're wheelchair in. And then he sees this guy go to the car or go to this truck, and he's like, I'm putting you ins, like I'm leaving you at the door. I'll be right back. And I'm like, oh my gosh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Doesn't listen to me. So he goes to this guy and he's like, um, uh, like, you know, you're parked into disabled spots. And the guy's like, yeah, like I just, I'm, I'm working on, he was like, uh, working on the outside of the mall, like doing some repairs or whatever. And my dad's like, oh, that's my daughter over there. Um, yeah, you're kind of taking one of the spots that she needs. As you, as you can tell, she has no leg. She has no hair. And um, like, yeah, we can only wheel her. So you just took one of her spots and. I'm just mortified. And this guy like, looks at my dad and he is like, oh. So it's fun little parking story with my dad. And um, it sounds like

Jesse 44:33

a great dad.

Anna 44:35

He's a, like, that's almost

Jesse 44:36

like, now you look back and you're like, that was really special. Like he really stood up for me.

Anna 44:40

Yeah, no, and he's, you know, he's Scottish, so like he is, he gets fiery and you know, when you get mad you don't wanna mad. So having this like Scottish guy, like yelling at him, it was, it was pretty hilarious to watch.

Jesse 44:55

And, uh, wait, now

Anna 44:56

that I.

Jesse 44:57

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's a sports psych, right? Is that true?

Anna 45:00

Yeah. My dad is a sports psych. Okay.

Jesse 45:01

Yes. I wanna, I want to get into that later'cause I think that'd be cool, but continue for sure. Keep going.

Anna 45:06

Okay. And then my other funny story, um, so me and my dad had done like our rounds at the mall, whatever we're leaving and it's um, it's like winter at this time. So it was like really snowy and slushy to kind of get through to the parking spot. Like you had to kind of cross the road to get to like my, my special disabled parking spot. Um, and so I was in this wheelchair that like we had borrowed and it, this was a wheelchair. It, like, it did not belong outside. It belonged like in a hospital, not, shouldn't have been outside, but you know, take it outside. And so my dad is like talking to me or get outside and it's like before we cross the street and he's like, I think like if we take a run at this, like, will just like, you know. Go like straight through. Like it'll be great. Like it'll be much easier than me trying to like slowly push you through. And I'm like, again, I'm so out of it, whatever. I'm like, okay, fine. Like do what you wanna do. And so he like winds up and he is like, starts sprinting. And then as soon as we hit the snow, like I'm like, go full line for it. I don't know how he grabs me by like the collar of my shirt and he is like holding me and I like choking. I'm crying and he's like, he like pulls me back into the chair, but I'm like. Like so close to face planting again, I have no leg. I am, I just, I look sick. It's just, it's all bad. And so he yanks me back in the chair and he's like, I'm so sorry. And he felt so bad and I'm, I'm crying just because like, I was just in shock and like scared. And he is like, like, I'll wheel you inside and I'll, I'll come and get the car and drive it up to you. And so wheels me inside. And this one lady had witnessed the whole thing. And so my dad goes back out and she comes up to me and she was like, do you need me to call mall security? And I was like, I, here's me. And I'm like, no. Like that was just my dad. And she like, was like, oh. And then like walks away and I'm like, oh my gosh. Just so embarrassing. But like this lady thinks like this. This random strangers kind of like, kill me, like put me, run me through the smell and ditch me. But yeah, so that was, uh, another story. I, uh, at the time I wasn't laughing, but I look back on, I'm like, oh my gosh, that's, it was hilarious.

Mathias 47:42

That's so funny.

Anna 47:44

It was, yeah, it was pretty brutal. Um, but yeah, so I had like, just like this whole loss of independence, right? Because I couldn't, I couldn't drive, I'd lost my right leg below the knee. So that's, you know, you need your right leg to drive. So couldn't do anything without relying on my parents. And um, yeah, just this loss of independence was another thing that was really hard for me. Um, but chemo continued after, um, so having New Year's to me, chemo restarted New Year's Day. Um, and I had to finish six more rounds. And in my head I'm thinking. You just chopped off my leg, like, why do you need me to do more of this? I was, I was really like, like angry about it because I was like, this doesn't make sense. Why are you making me do more chemo when you've, you've taken my leg. You've, you've done this and, but you need to do more. And in hindsight, like, yes, they needed to do more to make sure like none of the cancer had spread. Um, but yeah, I was really mad about it. Um, and so I ended up getting hospitalized for four out of six rounds of, uh, chemo with neutropenia, which is basically your, all your white blood cells, which like fight infections and stuff. Um, they're all like basically dead. Like I had no white blood cells. Um, so again, I was severely immunocompromised and in total I spent 32 days in the hospital. Um, and each time I was in the hospital, I mean, it's a good thing I was like, had my own room because I was in isolation and I, because I was so immunocompromised, but like, you know, every time my parents, the nurses and anyone came in had to like fully gown up, mask up, like to protect me. Um, and again, like that's obviously just like such an isolating feeling. You don't get to see like anything, anyone, you're seeing your nurses and your parents like that was it. Um, and yeah, so it was just like overall, that was just a very challenging time. You know, I'd lost my leg, still was doing chemo isolated, just overall miserable. Um, but then finishing chemo, uh, I finished my last chemo treatment on, uh, March 27th, 2024. And I mean, you guys both have me on Instagram, but like my video of me ringing the bell, um. And under the bell it says, like, it says, uh, ring this bell three times. Well, it's toll to clearly say, my treatment is done, this course is run, and I am on my way. And so this was like, it's a huge deal for someone going through cancer to get to ring this bell. And, um, you know, as you guys, I'm sure have seen in my video, like I, I balled after, um, bringing the bell and it, it's hard to put into words like what I felt after ringing it. I think it was like just this mix of emotions of like so much joy utter exhaustion, massive relief, and just like this release of so many negative emotions. So it was a really happy time, but there was still so much on the road ahead now because I had an amputation. So what's that gonna look like? Um. Have to go on.

Mathias 51:21

Yeah, no, that's,

Anna 51:23

I just wanna make sure I'm not like taking, eating up all the time.

Mathias 51:26

No, this is fantastic. I, you can take as long as we want. Really? Yeah. There's no rules. No, here. I just like, don't, while you're talking. Yeah. No, this is, this is fantastic. Um, so you're done chemo, you're moving into, I'm assuming some kind of, what do you call it? Not therapy, but

Anna 51:48

rehab. Rehab.

Mathias 51:49

Rehab. Yeah. Some kind of rehab. Can you walk us through that process and then maybe by the end of that we can get into moving back into sports?

Anna 52:01

Yes. Yes, for sure. Okay. Um, yeah, so. Uh, before I got my prosthetic, um, I'm kind of just hanging out waiting for this ball hill. And so my sister set up a meeting with Heidi Peters, who, um, she's a paralympic sitting volleyball player on the Canada Women's, uh, sitting volleyball national team. And she's bronze medalist. She's a big deal. She's really good. And I wasn't going to speak to her about sitting volleyball. I was just kind of going to speak to her like as an athlete with an amputation and a prosthetic.'cause I had not, I had no idea what to expect. Um, my sister kind of forced me to go because I, I was just like so reluctant at the time because I didn't identify as an amputee or a cancer survivor. I still, I still identified as a person without an amputation, even though I wasn't, it's hard to kind of explain, but. I felt like as soon as I started talking to people with amputations, like, oh, you now have an amputation. So I avoided it for so long, but my sister was like, you need to talk to somebody.'cause again, I wasn't doing well. What's my life gonna be like? So I had a great conversation with her about life as an amputee, and it gave me confidence and like inspired me to approach prosthetic fitting with like a positive frame of mind. Um, so my prosthetic fitting process is so, it's a long, um, it's a long process and I, I developed like a really amazing relationship with my prosthetist, Lisa Peters. I did reho Reho rehab at, um, the Glenrose. Um, again in Edmonton, that's only like 20 minutes away from my house again. Lucky that I had that. But, um, uh, so it's called the Glenrose Rehabil Rehabilitation Hospital. I can't speak English. And so that's where I basically, I was learning to walk again. And, um, it's so weird to think, I actually like, you know, you learn to walk as a walk as a baby, but you don't remember that. But like, I vividly remember learning to walk, um, with my prosthetics. So you, I went from like, like they have like old style, like walkers that you see like elderly people use. Like I started with that, then I moved to crutches, then I moved to one crutch, then I moved to a cane, then I moved to nothing. But it was like, it felt like a long process. It wasn't that long. They said that I actually went through it really fast. Um, but I think it was about like four weeks of four times, four times a week I would be going. Um, that it's just like, is that,

Jesse 54:56

is that because of your athletic background? Like just because Yes. Of your ability to move your body the way it's supposed to move kind of thing.

Anna 55:05

Yes. Yeah.

Jesse 55:06

Cool, cool.

Anna 55:07

Yeah. Um, so yeah, got through that. It was great. Um, I was back to an independent life and I could walk. Um, and I also learned to drive again, which is crazy because, so now how I drive, like obviously you all drive with your right foot on gas and pe, um, and brake. Uh, I learned like through a driving simulator. I tried that technique with my prosthetic, but the issue was if I had my foot on the gas and then had to go to the brake, like my foot would get caught and I couldn't feel it would get caught, so I couldn't get it onto the brake. So obviously we don't want that. We don't want me on the road if I'm driving like that. Um, so I learned to drive with both my feet. So that's how I drive now is my right foot is gas, left foot is brake, and it works for me. It's perfect. Um. I had to re-take my driver's test, which I was so mad about. I was like, really? You're making me do this again? Like just all of these things, all these hoops. I had to jump for a what?

Jesse 56:12

A money grab. Hey.

Anna 56:14

Right. It was such a money grab. So, but actually if you, if it's actually because of an amputation, you don't have to pay, so,

Jesse 56:21

oh, nice.

Anna 56:23

It was okay. It was okay in the end, but I'm still mad. Um, so yeah, got my driver's license and like I'm getting my independence back. I'm feeling good. And um, yeah, that's kind of where it ends, uh, my whole

Jesse 56:41

journey. That's fantastic and amazing and sad and everything all in between, all at once. Thank you very, very much for sharing that. That's really cool. Really special. I have so many questions and I don't know where to start. My first one, I think I wanna start with. My favorite part about that whole thing was the moment with you and your dad when he was holding your hand and he said, something good will come of this.

Anna 57:09

Mm-hmm.

Jesse 57:09

How, what has come, what good has come out of it so far?

Anna 57:15

Um, I mean, you know, sitting volleyball obviously, like now I am. Well, I'm sure we'll talk about that, but never in my wildest dreams would I, did I think I would ever be playing volleyball because I hated volleyball up until, up until six months ago. I hated it. And so, um, yeah. So that's come out of it. I mean, like, I got to meet like, I mean, he an so I don't think you like, like I, one of all time. And that was through And Jerome McGinley the family friend.

Jesse 57:55

Yeah, yeah,

Anna 57:56

yeah. Okay. Yeah, we're not quite on the same level, but whatever you, you flamers, you guys say what you want. Um, and just like, like being able to like accept that I am an amputee. Um, I still don't identify with being a cancer survivor. Like, I just, that's just not something I identify with. And people, they ask me, I'm like, yeah, I guess. But it's not like I'm like, I'm a cancer survivor. That's not really something I like to talk about. Um, but I'm happy to talk about like being an amputee. Like, yes, I'm disabled now, but there's so much I can still do. So there were lots of good things that came out of it. And at that time when you're going through that, you're like, no, this is my world is ending. Like, I can't play soccer anymore. What am I gonna do? Um, when that had been my whole identity since I was, when I started playing soccer at five. So, um, yeah, it got shifted and that's cool. That's cool. Lots of good things came from it.

Jesse 59:08

Mm-hmm. I, I do want to get into volleyball soon, but another part of that, of your story that really struck me was, was the part where you said you don't know if you're someone's reason to keep pushing. I think that was, that was really cool. And, and can be applied to many aspects of life or of, of, uh, hardship. Um mm-hmm. But my question is how, what advice would you give to someone who has someone in their life. Dealing with something as traumatic as cancer or, or amputations or something along those very, very life altering moments.

Anna 59:59

Am I talking as if I'm talking to the person who is like going through that or the person, like they have someone in their family who's

Jesse 1:00:05

going through that in, in their family or, or their significant other or something like that?

Anna 1:00:11

Um,

Jesse 1:00:11

yeah. And, and I understand like you can't prepare for that. There's no way, there's no way you prepare for that. You're like, oh, if that, when that happens, if that happens, I'm gonna do this. Like, there's no chance.

Anna 1:00:19

Mm-hmm.

Jesse 1:00:20

But I think there's probably someone out there that, that might remember this conversation and, and, and things happen to people all, all the time that are, you're unprepared for.

Anna 1:00:32

Yeah. Uh, that's a good question. Um, I think what I would say to someone, if they had somebody. Going through this that was close to them is like, just like, be there, be there for them. And it may look different for everybody, um, of how you're there for that person. So I had some of my friends who were there for me of like, they would text me and ask me how I was doing and did I respond to them always. Most of the time I didn't because I didn't want to. But like knowing that they were there thinking of me like was something that kept me going. As well as like my sister, like she's an accountant, she works long hours. She would come over after her crazy day and just watch TV with me and it doesn't seem like that much. But at that time when I was going through it, like we didn't talk, we didn't talk about stuff because. Last thing I wanted to do was talk more about what I was going through. Um, but just having someone there and knowing that they were there for me was just, that was so important to me. So if I were to tell somebody, I would just say, be present in that person's life in any way that you can.

Jesse 1:02:02

That's cool.

Mathias 1:02:04

That's really cool. Well, okay. I have a, I have a, okay. I dunno how I feel about this question I'm about to ask, but you're, you're basically going through hell on earth. You have this insane whirlwind of emotion and, and things that are happening to you. I'm wondering if you would've done anything differently.

Anna 1:02:37

Done anything differently.

Mathias 1:02:39

Because I know there's like, you know what, how much you can control, I don't think in that scenario.

Anna 1:02:44

Yeah.

Mathias 1:02:45

Yeah.

Anna 1:02:47

Um hmm. Like, I mean, that's a good question. I think like, you can't, like you said, you can't control things, a lot of those things, so I can't, there wasn't much I could change about what was happening. But I think if I could go back and knowing like kind of what I've been through now, if I could go back, it would be to not socially isolate myself as much as I did. Um, and like for the Instagram for sure, that was like, I needed to do that. I couldn't, it was so, so hard for me to see all these amazing things going on in people's lives. And that's not happening to me right now. I am stuck in a hospital like. Like, like you said, like I'm going through hell. Um, but I think like just being more open to, you know, who cares what I look like, like I looked like a, like a cancer patient and people knew I was going through cancer. So, you know, being open to FaceTiming with my friends and just like talking about anything other than what I was going through was beneficial to me, um, when I started opening up more later on. Um, but I think I, I would've been so much better for me mentally if I had just let more people in. Um, yeah, because I, I just kept people out and I think in the end, if I were to do it all over again, I would've made more of an effort to be the people around me, more kind of involved.

Jesse 1:04:34

Definitely easier said than done.

Anna 1:04:37

Yes.

Mathias 1:04:37

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's why I wasn't so sure about that question, because it's such an extreme scenario that mm-hmm.

Anna 1:04:45

It's not,

Mathias 1:04:45

it's not like you were making many choices I don't think are any bad choices. Like you're incomplete survival. Um.

Anna 1:04:53

Mm-hmm.

Mathias 1:04:55

Well, um, okay, so how did you find, I I have one question

Jesse 1:04:59

before we get to volleyball. Okay. Okay. I just wanna go back to my original question about perspective now that we, we have the whole story out. Like even if it's something as simple as not taking, driving for granted and being able to press the brake properly, like some, I'm just curious about what kind of perspective shifts you've experienced over the last little while.

Anna 1:05:26

Um, I mean, in terms of like a cancer journey, like viewpoint from that, um. Hmm. Perspective change. Like, I think like, yeah, like losing independence was, you know, you just never think you're gonna lose it. Like, and I think in, well, just in general, like I, you never plan for these things to happen to you, but they, like, it can happen to anyone. And that's what I think I learned was I was like, me cancer, not a chance ever. Like, will I ever get cancer? Maybe when I'm like super old.'cause a lot of people, you know, get cancer as they get older. But like, I think it's just like, I came to a realization that, you know, bad things can happen to anyone and like, uh, like bad things can happen to good people. And because I, you know, I generally like to think of myself as a good person. Um, and. I think that just for me, that was kind of something that was hard to wrap my head around was, oh, horrible Things like almost dying can happen to people who are, you know, fantastic. You know, not saying that I'm fantastic, but you know, a little bit. But yeah, so I think that's a big thing. And then, yeah, taking like the independence for granted, um, I mean, now, like when I shower, this is like, it's so basic, but like, I miss showering standing up, which is so ridiculous. You're like, what? Why? But like, I have to sit on like, like a bench to shower because I have one leg. If I slip, I'm, I'm kind of screwed. So I sit, I have to sit down and shower. And that's something that like, I miss. Um, but yeah, they're just like all these like little things that you. I can't do with one leg that you took for granted before. Um, so I would just say like, being thankful for what you do have. And it sucks that it kind of took, took me in order to realize that it took me losing my leg to realize how much I had and how lucky I was. Um, so I mean, if you can realize that before those kinds of things happen to you, like you're winning, that's, that's a good thing.

Mathias 1:08:07

I think that's one of the unfortunate, uh, realities of life is that we just get used to our current scenario and we take most of what we have for granted.

Anna 1:08:19

Mm-hmm.

Mathias 1:08:23

But maybe not after this podcast.

Anna 1:08:26

Yeah. Hopefully, really helps some people.

Lets talk about Volleyball

Mathias 1:08:29

We're gonna change the world. We're gonna change the world. And also like, I don't know about you Anna, but I feel like you could do anything now that you've been through that. Like, I don't know if you'll ever have anything that will compare to that. I'll never say never.'cause we just talked about that. But but just like, yeah, it's incredible the amount of, the amount of strength of character that I think you've developed going through that is unbelievable. Well, and, and had

Jesse 1:09:02

beforehand, right?

Anna 1:09:06

Thank you.

Jesse 1:09:07

Okay. Let's talk volleyball. Let's talk volleyball.

Anna 1:09:10

Uh, okay.

Mathias 1:09:12

How did, how did you. Get connected and end up on the women's sitting national volleyball team. Yeah. Congratulations on that. That's pretty cool.

Anna 1:09:21

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Uh oh, gosh. Well, oh, so my prior experience with volleyball, none. I played in junior high and high school ped class. Like I didn't play on the teams, like junior teams, senior team. Not a chance. I hated volleyball. And I just remember like, I don't know. I know for sure Jesse, you played with Jacob Current and Mathis, did you play with Jacob, Kurt?

Mathias 1:09:52

Yeah. One year.

Anna 1:09:53

Okay. So Jacob and I went to the same high school and so we were in our phys ed 30 class together. And like this is just like, I just wanna punch him sometimes, but um. He would on purposely, like when we were doing our volleyball unit, he would on, like on purposely go on the opposite team as me. And when he got to serve or whatever, he would just absolutely smash the ball at me as hard as he could. And I have no, like, I don't use my hands like soccer. What? Like, I didn't compute and so he would just smash it at me. And I'm there like, I'm like, why? Like this, this sport sucks. Like, I genuinely hated volleyball, so I'm so sorry, but I hated your sport. Um, yeah, that was, that was our sport on our side. Now sport here, what am I saying now? I've come to the dark side. Um, so yeah, that was my prior experience with it, but, um. As I said earlier, the podcast when I met with Heidi Peters, uh, you know, through like bronze medalist in Paris, hitting volleyball player. Um, so my sister, again, I don't wanna say forced, but strongly encouraged me to go meet with her. Um, and I was really reluctant to go because again, associating with an amputee, just like I didn't want to. Um, and again, I was meeting with her to talk about being an amputee in the prosthetic process, not at all about sitting volleyball. And I just remember in our conversation, she like, kind of brought that up and she was like, oh, would you ever be interested in playing sitting volleyball? And I was like, no. Like, no, never, ever, ever, ever, never. And she, she was really good about it. She was like, okay, like, yeah, no worries. Like if you ever wanna come to practice or whatever. I'm like, yeah, no. Like, it's not gonna happen. Um. So I try, like other sports after I had my amputation, like rowing, it was way too complicated running. I couldn't do it yet because my bone wasn't strong enough to run on that leg. And I just like, I love team sports. I'm a team sport player. Um, so I just, I love team sports. And so this was in like, I wanna say like October. I met with, um, family, friends, um, Len and Roberta Vickery, Len, uh, he was the former bear soccer coach. He coached my, he even coached my dad like back when he played bears. So, um, long time knowing him. And so his daughter was the physio for the, uh, Kendall Women's sitting volleyball team. And she asked, she asked her parents. Or like if I would give permission to share my information with the sitting volleyball coach and again, like, here's me thinking nothing's gonna come of this. Yeah. Like, sure, go ahead, share my information. And later Heidi texts me and invites me to a practice in December and I was like, no, you don't wanna do this. But my sister was, again, she strongly encouraged me to go. Um, and she was like, if you don't like it, you never have to play again. Just go and try it. And so I went and I actually like had so much fun. Even the weather so bad. Yeah. Like, I loved it and I'm like, what is going on here? Like, I, and it's just like, you know, I'm playing a sport with my hands. Like I didn't know, I didn't know I had hands before, and so I was so bad and I just, I feel so bad for Heidi, just this paralympic level athlete playing with me who just doesn't know what's going on. I don't know how to, you know, like, forearm pass setting, what is setting, like all these things. But I, I loved it. And so I've been playing ever since. Um, so that was back in December and I've been to like, we've, we have like a, like a camp every month and then, um, we train twice a week and, you know, slowly but surely I'm, I'm getting better. I'm, I'm still like a hundred percent. I'm still like the. Like easily, easily the drug kill on the entire team. But like, whatever, you know, I'm trying, I, I, I'm like trying my best and I'm learning and I just like kind of have a new, I have a new appreciation for you guys in your sport. Like, it's so hard. And I just, not that I didn't think volleyball wasn't hard, but like, oh my gosh, like, are you playing in position 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? What?

Jesse 1:15:00

Like what are the rotations That's the hard part. The hard part. is the numbers.

Anna 1:15:04

Kay The numbers, those are so hard. It's funny'cause in soccer, you know, you have your typical numbers of like the 11 on the field. No, that makes perfect sense to me. Volleyball numbers, what? And then don't even get me started on, like, you guys are talking about rotations. What is a rotation? I don't understand. Like, I don't understand what's going on. And then whatever you're, you're left side and. Your right side, and I know middle is your person in the middle, so like setter, you know, the side of the person on the left and

Jesse 1:15:35

the right side is the person on the right. Like, it's not that difficult.

Anna 1:15:39

It's just so complicated for me because I think, like, as a soccer player, yeah. And like, so a lot of the times the coach, um, Nicole Ban would have to explain things to me as a, like from like a soccer lens. So like she would Oh, that's cool. I would, I'm, yeah. So like, I'm brutal, brutal at serving and I was like, man, this would be like the easiest skill. Like, I watch you I remember watching you guys at Trinity. I was like, pfft well, yeah, whatever. Like, easy. No, what the heck? No one told me it was so hard. And so she was like, you gotta think of it like you're, you're following through on your, uh, on like a kick, like in soccer. Like, you know, you're, you're, um, um, ankle's locked. So your hand has to be locked and, um, you're falling through like forward because of course I'm not doing spin, like let's hope I can get a float serve over. Um, and then there, look at me, I'm using volleyball terms. You guys be proud. Um, and so like she has to explain a lot of things in a soccer way that, that I then apply to sitting volleyball. And it's just, it's so much easier for me to learn that way. But yeah, that's kind of a, that's where I'm at.

Jesse 1:17:01

That's fantastic though. Like that's, that's, that is a great coach. And like, I'm sure, I mean, you, you understand that too from an education perspective. Finding different ways to, to teach your, your students or your players. Mm-hmm. What works for them and the way that their mind works. I think that's, that's brilliant. That's really cool. I think we have a really cool opportunity here because you're an adult. But you're learning skills. Um, like many of our listeners are learning, our, our target audience is younger athletes, but you have all this experience in high level, uh, athletics. What, I don't even know what my question is. Like what's, what's the hardest part about volleyball other than serving, but, or like, or, I mean, what am I trying to say? What am I trying to say? TIAs? Well, I have no

Mathias 1:18:01

idea, but, but yeah, maybe let's go through kind of what you're, what you're working through right now, but then also I'm really curious about like, what's your favorite part? So what's the highs and what's the lows and what are you working on? Yeah. Okay. Di Dito,

Anna 1:18:23

same. Okay. Yeah. Um. Oh, the, like, the lows I would say, like, I am, I like to say I'm a recovering perfectionist. Like I, I'm, I just, it's so hard for me. And I think, like, looking back when I was younger, I never tried, well, I never tried news sports. I didn't try a lot of new sports because I didn't wanna be seen as like, bad of like, people like being like, ha ha, like, she's so bad at this sport. And so I avoided a lot of sports when I was young because it was just like, I couldn't put aside my ego of like, these people are gonna laugh at me. And so, um, it's kind of like now as an adult, like, it's like, okay, yeah, you have to put aside your ego and be okay with being the, um, the worst, the worst person there. And. So I would say with sitting volleyball, like of course all the skills have been like so tough to learn because I'm not, I don't like, I'm not a hand hand athlete. Like I'm not an athlete who uses my hands. Now I'm, but um, I think it's been like super mentally challenging of like, like I said, just like putting aside that ego and being okay with being the worst on the court, like, and being a drill kill. Like, that's, that's been so hard for me. Um, and I think like, yeah, I mean, your target is, is younger audiences. So like, just being okay with like, messing up, like that's, it's something that I've, I've had to learn. Um, and I'm still learning. But, uh, yeah, I think those are the hardest things for me. Um. The things I most enjoy. Oh, goodness gracious. Um, I think, what do I enjoy the most? Like, I just love, like being around like, um, the other, the other players, like my teammates. Um, I just feel like, uh, I don't know, I think in volleyball in general, but like sitting, volleyball, volleyball, I think like you're, you're so much closer and you have to be so much closer for things to go right for you. Versus soccer, you're on a team of like 30 people and so, you know, I may not even talk to this one person, but like one, they might never pass me the ball in the game or they'll pass me a couple times or two. Like they don't see the field.'cause we only get five subs. And then once you're, once you're out, you're up. Like you don't come back in. So. I feel like a volleyball, you need to be so much closer because at any time on the court, you could receive the ball from anyone and you need to kind of know and be on the same wavelength of like where they're at. So I kind of like the, the closeness, I guess, I think, I don't if that's the right word, but like the bond like that you have in volleyball that you might have with a couple, like a, a couple of your teammates in soccer, but you need that with kind of all of your teammates in volleyball. Hmm.

Mathias 1:21:48

It's a great point. I think volleyball is maybe one of the least selfless or the most selfless sports, especially because you, you never control the ball, uh mm-hmm. Like in soccer, you can dribble basketball, you can dribble most other sports. You can, yeah, you can retain possession by yourself. Um, but in volleyball it's impossible. And then most other rebound sports, let's say like tennis, badminton, uh, pickleball, whatever, anything where there's like a net in the middle where you're bouncing it over, you just give it back to their team. So I think volleyball's unique because you can't control the ball yourself, but you have to give it to a teammate. So I think that's like, that's where that closeness comes from. And you're absolutely right. I think that's why most, at least I was drawn, maybe Jesse too. I think a lot of my friends are drawn to volleyball as well, because you, you gotta be super tight.

Anna 1:22:41

Mm-hmm.

Jesse 1:22:44

Muted there. Big guy. Oops. I'm super curious, um, about failure one, your response to failure. Uh, as a newcomer to the sport, but also the fact that in soccer you could win one zero and you experience no failure, and then in volleyball you could win in five and experience like 75 points of failure. So where, what was that like for you?

Anna 1:23:27

Yeah, um, I mean like soccer and volleyball are just vastly different sports, right? Like in soccer, you know, typically you're scoring one goal, two goals, hopefully having non scored on you. But yeah, like it's a very low scoring game, whereas in volleyball, you're getting a point every time. Which is just like, I dunno, it's so weird to me. I'm not used to it yet, but I'll, um, but I mean, like managing, like failures and frustrations. I think for me, like I need to talk about it with somebody, um, when I'm frustrated with myself. Like, I hate, I hate being the drill kill, but I am. And so I love like talking to my teammates and being like, what do I need to do? Like, what am I doing wrong? They have so much knowledge that I don't have, again, I'm a total rookie, novice beginner at this sport, and they're so good. And so just like being able to ask them like, what am I doing wrong? How, how do I get the ball from here to there? And what is my most effective way? So I think talking with people is really good for me. Um. Reminding myself that I'm not very good yet. Like, just like that power of yet. And just knowing like, I mean, again, like you said, your target is young volleyball players, like all your listeners, like they have so much potential. Like you have so, so much higher to go. And like the fact I'm 26 and I'm just learning this sport and I'm actually getting better, believe it or not, from my first time I practiced to like where I am now, I'm better than I was. I think it's just like, that's so good to have that reminder of like, I'm not good at this yet. So like I'm not good at serving yet, but I will be. And I think that's super important for athletes as well to remember that. Um, especially when like, if you're going through a dip in your performance, if you're having a really tough time with a certain skill, like. The power of yet is so, is so good. I think

Jesse 1:25:57

that is so cool. That's incredible quote. Is that a book or did you just come up with that?

Anna 1:26:02

There is a book called the, the Magical yet. Oh, is is there That I read to my grade ones, yeah. Oh,

Jesse 1:26:08

the grade ones. That's funny.

Anna 1:26:11

My little grade ones. Yeah.

Jesse 1:26:13

Cool. But that's, that's a really interesting idea. The power of yet.

Mathias 1:26:16

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. And I also love, um, how much you're leaning on your teammates to help as well. We've talked about that a bunch as well. At, at any level, people are always trying to improve to get better, right? Even if you've mm-hmm. Been playing for 10 years, I think the goal is always to get better. And I think there's probably, um, missed opportunity to learn from those around you. The longer you've been doing it, maybe because you think you might know or it's just not. As new to you, so you're not seeking it out as much, but I think that's super powerful for, for athletes at all levels in any sport. Um

Anna 1:26:56

mm-hmm.

Mathias 1:26:57

Do you think there's any, any intangibles it will likely be that you bring to the volleyball court that give you an advantage over those who have only ever played volleyball?

Anna 1:27:13

Um hmm.

Jesse 1:27:16

Actually, I have a, a question I want to add to that. Is there anyone on the sitting volleyball team that has only ever played volleyball?

Anna 1:27:26

Um, that's a good question. Both of those are good questions. Um, I know like a lot of the girls on the team, like had amputations when they were younger, so they've had their amputation for a while. So they've been playing sitting volleyball for a while, but like, one, one, um. One teammate, she played soccer up until she was 12, then had an amputation, and then has been playing sitting volleyball ever since. So I'm definitely like the, the freshest amputation. Um, but like other people have, I don't know if they've played like, like maybe they have played some sports, but I don't think that like, like a high performance level, um, like in university or whatever. So yeah, that's it. Different. Um, what I bring, oh my goodness. Uh, I mean if we're totally taken out, the, the skills part, um, I mean I think like, like what I can bring is, is fresh eyes. Um. As someone who, again, I don't know the sport very well, still, um, like just asking, like when I ask questions about like, oh, why are you doing it this way? And then they're like, oh, I didn't even realize I was doing it this way. And then they'll keep doing it that way and be like, okay, this is the reason I do it. Or they're like, oh, yeah, that's not good. Like, I'll change it, but without me asking because I'm asking a million questions of practice of like, why do you do this that way? Like, because I, I wanna get better, so is that the way to do it? And I think I kind of, yeah, like bring those fresh eyes. And then, um, also for me, like being like in the sport of soccer, like I've been through, you know, uh, like I've experienced upsets, I've experienced like the highs and lows and you know, the mental side. I think, I mean, I don't know if this is just me because I'm new to ball, like sitting volleyball, but. I find it's so much harder mentally. Like I, it's like, let's bring up serving here. I like, I can serve if I'm like a, like one butt scooch in front of where I need to be at the service line, I'm, I can hit it over like I'm good. But as soon as I get to the service line I'm like, oh my gosh. Like you have to get this over. You know, you give a point if you don't. And it's just like, and it's like so much of a mind game with yourself, whereas in soccer I didn't find that, um, nearly as much, if that makes sense.

Jesse 1:30:25

Definitely makes sense. We, we all, we all still think that we have to say, I was just gonna say, you're not alone. You're definitely not alone. As soon as you go back there and, and all eyes are on you, you, the ref blows the whistle and everyone's just staring at you. It's like, oh,

Anna 1:30:42

here we

Jesse 1:30:42

go. Like, yeah. Yeah. It's, you're not alone. I'm curious about, uh, your dad being a sports psychologist. How, what role has he played in your newfound love for volleyball and, and your, um, curiosity and, and desire to improve?

Anna 1:31:03

Um, I mean, I think like my curiosity and desire to improve has like, come like from me. I mean, I get it. I think, like I get it from both my mom, my dad, but, um, I'd say like my dad, like he will come, he played, I. High school volleyball. He's, he's not like a very tall guy, so he played setter. So he loves to gimme, like, he'll try and gimme tips and I'm like, okay, dad, this is very different. This is sitting volleyball. You played standing volleyball however many years ago. It's been a while. It's been a while for you. So, you know, like, I'm gonna take my coach's advice over his, um, but he is like, so invested in helping me become better. Like, he'll come to the gym like he's retired now. Um, but he still does, like, he, he was a professor at the U of A, um, but he's retired from that. And so, no, he just does his sports like business. Um, but he will like drop everything to come and just hit balls at me in, in the gym. Um, and you know, for another big thing for sitting volleyball athletes is. Shagging shagging balls. It's, it's a pain. Um, but he's like running around the court as I'm going and just like load me up. And I think he's just so passionate and, and he's like, hi. He just like, like, I can't wait to see how far you go. And I mean, he's definitely helped me with some mental aspects. Like he, he was like my go-to sport performance coach, like, um, when I was playing soccer.'cause he knew soccer so well. Um, he played at a high level, um, not as much with volleyball. Um, but he definitely still gives me like tips and tricks like breathing. Um, I don't know, like, uh, again, he is, he is really good with me. Like making sure, like I'm not being so hard on myself. He constantly reminds me, Anna, you've been playing this sport for six months. You're not at the level that your teammates are at because they've been playing for however many years, you know? So he is also really good at reminding me that it's okay that I suck right now, but that I will get better.

Mathias 1:33:38

That's fantastic. Um, you mentioned there that your dad is curious how far you'll go and I'm wondering, I was gonna ask this question. Yeah. I'm wondering, I'm wondering if you, uh, have set any goals for yourself in, in volleyball and where, where do you see it going?

Anna 1:34:00

Um, I mean, the ultimate goal would be to make it to the Paralympics like that is, I would love, I would love to make it there, even if I'm riding the bench the whole time. I would be happy to be there. Um, so yeah, like, I think that's like the big dream. I mean, we're at like the, we're in like the first year of the quad, so, um, you know, I got time, um, to do some drastic improvement if I'm gonna get there. But, um, I mean, like, for example, like we're going to the Netherlands at the end of June, um, for a tournament, and you know, like if I can get in as I, I'm not gonna be a surf sub, I'll tell you that, but if I can get in as a passing sub, like how cool would that be for me? And like, that's kind of where I'm starting. But like, if I were to look ahead, like the ultimate goal would be to be a member of the Paralympic squad. But yeah, I'm starting, I'm starting small. I'm starting realistic. Um, you know, pass, sub put me in'cause I also don't know how to hit the ball. Um, I dunno how to do a lot of things. Okay. Um, but yeah, uh, yeah, I think that's kind of just setting like small goals that are, um, I forget, you know, like the smart goals, but mm-hmm. I don't even remember what everything stands for, but like, more of like for me is achi. They're achievable and they're realistic. Um, so that's kind of, yeah, that's kind of where I'm starting at. That's

Mathias 1:35:43

awesome. I think it's cool to have those, those like big dreams. Uh, yeah. Maybe they're not goals right now, but dreams and then you can start to work your way there through the smaller day-to-day goals like you're talking about. I think it's,

Jesse 1:35:58

it's, it's cool. Tos verbalize those too.'cause then. When you get there and then maybe you don't play, maybe you do ride the bench and you're like a little disappointed. You almost lose that perspective of like, no, I'm at the Paralympics right now on the national team. You know, like mm-hmm. It's cool to look back and be like, no, this was a huge accomplishment and a big goal of mine.

Anna 1:36:25

Yeah, for sure.

Mathias 1:36:27

you mentioned, you mentioned not being able to hit and that serving is, uh, is a big thing you're working on. I found out today that you've been working with Nick Del Bianco. From the Athlete Wellness Academy. Forgot to see that. Yeah. So I

Anna 1:36:45

gotta say that.

Mathias 1:36:47

Yeah. He's one of the, one of our sponsors, uh, the Arm Swing Academy of the podcast. Um mm-hmm. And he said he is having a ton of fun working with you. And he, he mentioned that, uh, well, okay. First I want to know how it's been working with him. You don't have to like plug it or anything like that, but I'm curious what, what you're learning from him. And, uh, also he said you're still deciding which hand to use.

Anna 1:37:15

Oh my gosh. You guys, this is so embarrassing. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Let's start with how it's going. Um, so I actually stop laughing. You can't laugh at me. I'm new. I'm a newbie. I'm laughing.

Jesse 1:37:28

I'm laughing with you.

Anna 1:37:30

With me. Thank you. I appreciate it. Okay. Um, no, I literally heard about the Armswing academy Through your, through you guys. And I, when I was back in, like, when I was starting, I think I started working with him honestly two months ago. Yeah, two months ago or something like that.'cause I've just been brutal with my serving and you know, I'm swear. And so I was like, oh, I, because I listened to your guys' podcast, like I love it. I'm a big fan. Um, you know, I'm learning a lot. I'm now actually understanding what some people are saying about like, oh, it's this, like, you know, when you're in position one, I'm doing this. And I was like, oh yeah, I know position one. Um, so I'm learning, like now I can actually understand some things. But yeah, so I heard about him through you guys and I was just like, oh, like he could totally help me on parts of the game that I'm just really bad at. And so working with him has been so good. And yeah, I would totally like, say. To all your listeners, if you like. Can work with him, work with him. He's so good. Um, I like, just from working with him for two, for from two months. I've had two sessions with him. My serving I like for four months. I could not serve it over the net. I can now serve it over the net, like somewhat consistently. And that is huge. And like even my coaches have been like, and my teammates comment on it. They're like, whoa Like, like what happened? And like, I'm like, you know, I've just been like putting the work in. But No, it's, it's Nick. It's all Nick. So yeah, I, his sponsor of this, use him. He's so good. So,

Mathias 1:39:21

love it. Love to hear it. That's cool. What are you guys working on right now? Because I guess I, I, I, for whatever Jesse and I, and most volleyball athletes, arm swing is natural. Like, it's just something that we do. Right? And it might be, it always can use improvement. You can always get better, get more power, he, your shoulder, all those things. But I, I couldn't imagine just never doing an arm swing before. And then now that's your, that's your thing. So what did you guys start working on and how is that process getting that going?

Anna 1:39:58

Uh, yeah. Okay. So we started working on like, like he, he was like, you can't throw a ball. And I was like, no, I can't. I never have. I'm sorry. And so he's like, we're gonna teach you how to properly throw a ball. So he is like, he literally like lent me a pickleball and I just practiced, just like chucking it against the wall properly, proper form. Um, he wouldn't be happy about that one, but, um, and just like also learning how to. Like following through and he's like, you know, to get more power, it doesn't mean you have to swing harder, but it like means you just have to be more flexible and all these things. Like I'm learning so much. And um, so we're kind of working on that. And then, yeah, can't believe he told you that. Um, I, I, for five months I trained my right hand.'cause I, I am left-handed, but everything I've done, like golf, swing, tennis, whatever, like shooting a basketball, it would always be with my right hand. So I'm like, I'm right handed. Um, so for five months I was doing that and then it was at one of our sitting volleyball practices. I don't know, the ball came at me weird. So I just like hit it with my left. And my coach is like, was that your left? And I was like, yeah. And she's like, that actually looks better than your right. And I was like. And then, so she, at the end of practice, we were serving and she's like, oh, can you like just serve a couple with your, your left hand? And I like no word to lie in six serves. I got the serve over the net with my left hand, whereas it had taken me three months to get it over with my right. So in my head I'm thinking I've just wasted three months of my life trying to drain the wrong hand. But right now I'm working with him and he's still, he's like, I, I don't know, like I'm not convinced, like he's like, they're pretty much the same. And so we're trying to figure out what hand I should be using. Like they want, like my team wants me using my left hand because I guess, I guess that's more rare. And um, here's me learning all these things. That's rare. For the type of amputation I have, not having my right leg, but actually having my left leg allows me to like better push to hit the ball versus if I were have my right leg and I'm left-handed, I have to drag. I don't, I hard to explain. You have more, you have more leverage,

Jesse 1:42:42

right? Like

Mathias 1:42:43

opposite sense, opposite blood. Like there's more

Anna 1:42:44

power going into it.

Mathias 1:42:46

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because you can push off your, your leg if it's the one back pushing versus pulling.

Anna 1:42:52

Yeah, exactly. So like, they're like, okay, we're turning you, like, they were like, we're turning you, you're left handed now from out on and with him, he is like, I'm like, I don't know, like, like I can definitely throw the ball harder with my Right. But he's like, is that because you've done that your whole life and like you haven't had, like, you've never done an arm swing before? And he's like, they're like, pretty much the exact same. So we, we are trying to figure out what hand I am, um, which is just so ridiculous, so embarrassing. Um, because I'm like, this isn't, oh my gosh. Like, who doesn't know what hand they are, but yeah. So that's just such a unique

Jesse 1:43:38

problem though.

Mathias 1:43:38

That's so cool. It's a, it's a full, a full clean slate. This is, this is awesome.

Anna 1:43:44

Yeah. So like, I'm, I'm starting at basics.

Mathias 1:43:49

That's, that's awesome. Cool. Okay. Well, I've, I've gotta run guys. Jesse, do you have any more things you wanted to cover?

Jesse 1:43:58

Yeah, but it would take like three hours. I think we'll just have to, honestly, once you make the Paralympics, we'll have you back on and then,

Mathias 1:44:04

then we'll look back at this episode and we'll all laugh. No, this will, this will be a great conversation to continue. Uh, Anna, that was, yeah. Yeah. Honestly, incredible. The most, by far, the most impactful. Episode we've done hearing your story, what, what you went through, how you handled it, and then where you are now. Um, yeah, thanks for sharing. It's incredible.

Anna 1:44:27

Thank you for having me. It was fun.

Jesse 1:44:29

Yeah, it was really fun, really special and, and we're not joking. We will have you back on again because I think there's lots more to talk about and I think it'll be a great, great product. Product for the listeners and also for TS and I. That was just, I don't know about Ts, but it gave me a new perspective on a lot of things, so thank you for that. Yeah, absolutely.

Mathias 1:44:51

Yeah, I think that wraps up episode number 37 of the Pit Pro Podcast. Thanks everyone for listening and signing off.

1:45:03

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